I'm not really sure that we can say when Reed is on form or not after playimg just 19 games, never mid have enough information to rank him in the top x centres

Yes, the NRL is the strongest club competition in the world of Rugby League but this is the problem – let’s not assume that every player who plays in that league is world class because they simply aren’t

I agree with you on that, but I have probably seen Jack Reed play more that I have Kallum Watkins and I think he's a star.

OK, that's a fair point - I hope turns out to be (and English!)

Nice to have a disagreement on the VT that hasn't ended up in handbags!

Only a "novice" (your word) would argue that an error-strewn individual performance which constituted 6 missed tackles and 3 ineffective tackles somehow constitutes as "quality", and the "mashing up" and "crushing" of the opposition single-handedly.

Quite correct.

Gareths stats prove that.

Ellis hasn't been particularly prolific at offloads during his international career against the Aussies and Kiwis so why should he suddenly start now?

[uGareth Ellis Number of offloads[/u

2008 World Cup V AUS - 0
2008 World Cup V NZ - 1
2008 World Cup V NZ- 1

2009 Four Nations V AUS - 1
2009 Four Nations V NZ - 1
2009 Four Nations V AUS - 1

2010 Four Nations V NZ - 1
2010 Four Nations V AUS - 0

Yes it was and you're wearing it well

Suits you!

I look forward to Ellis "mashing up" and "crushing" the Aussies and Kiwis in November based on his missed/ineffective tackling performance on Friday against Manly, along with his "quality" offloading ability once every blue moon.

Meanwhile, in the real world, either the Aussies or the Kiwis will win the tournament.

Anyone who doubts the absolute quality of Gareth Ellis is an idiot.

Stats only tell you half the story in any game. But the fact Ellis was Wests Player of the Year 2009 and 2010, and Wests Members Player of the Year 2009 should tell you a little.

Have a look for "Wests Tigers - Gareth Ellis" on YouTube and you'll see a bit of what he's been doing in the much vaunted mighty NRL.

I haven't seen a great deal of absolute quality from Gareth Ellis on the international stage for England or GB against the Aussies or Kiwis. Same applies to Adrian Morley throughout his international career. Patchy at best.

Any idea why such esteemed quality form in the NRL rarely translated itself on to the international stage?

No, you're correct. Ripping it up in the NRL counts for absolutely squat unless he's blown the world apart in an international.

Really.

Ripping it up, mashing them up, crushing them up in the NRL appears to overlook things like 6 missed tackles and 3 ineffective tackles according to some.

He's going to blow the world apart in internationals in November isn't he?

The OP used a bad example to extol the virtues of all things Gareth Ellis. If he misses 6 tackles and makes 3 incomplete tackles for England in the Tri Nations like he did on Friday for Wests Tigers against Manly, the Australians and Kiwis will have a field day targeting him at international level.

You're banging on about the 6 & 3 as though it's a shocking statistic.

Benji Marshall also missed 6 tackles in that game.
So did Anthony Watmough.
Dene Halatau missed 6 and made 4 ineffective tackles for Canterbury.
Nathan Fein made 4 ineffective tackles for St George.
Chris Sandow missed 10 tackles for Souths.

There are many players who missed more tackles and made more ineffective tackles than Gareth Ellis. Change the record.

It's not a statistic which earmarked Ellis's performance this weekend as a "mashing, crushing or ripping up" of the NRL by any stretch of anyone's imaginative imagination. It was the most ridiculous example of "bigging up" a British player imaginable. Galloway, Heighington and Gibbs all played far better than Ellis this weekend.

Unlike Ellis whose job it is to engage in the no-nonsense grind and tackle stints, none of those players you've cited above are noted for their solid, defensive qualities. Laughably, you've compared Ellis to attack-minded backs like Sandow, Marshall and Fien. You may as well compare Ellis's defensive capabilities with those of Sean Long or Danny McGuire!

Ellis isn't mashing, crushing and ripping up the NRL every week. He's a solid, dependable, reliable player with a high work rate mainly in defence. He had a poor game this weekend by his own standards. And when it comes to the 4N in November, he'll struggle to compete... just like he and every other England player has struggled to compete in the international arena. Nothing will change there, no matter what England side takes to the field or who is coaching them.

Whatever fella!

No one else mentioned internationals but you, go ask the commentators what they thought of Ellis's performance against Manly, Sterling and Gould in particular spent lengthy periods waxing on about his QUALITY.

Go back to playing for or coaching the under 9s and keep kidding yourself that you know what you're talking about, I'm sure the under 9s lap up everything you say.

You mentioned internationals in your opening post, therefore you were the first person to allude to them. Your context is clear... [i"Good news for England, Ellis is crushing them down under"... "Gareth Ellis has absolutely mashed the Sea Eagles"... "he's right on his game now"... "If only big Sam can get a few games in before the end of the season we might have some fireworks in the 4Ns".[/i

Like Eddie & Stevo in the UK waxing lyrically about Super League on behalf of BSkyB, Gould & Sterling also work to an agenda to "big-up" the players and the product on show from their TV paymasters at Channel Nine. I still haven't forgotten Gould's comments during last years Tri Nations Final when he waxed lyrically about Australian dominance and the winning quality edge they have over the Kiwis, which in his opinion is due to their State of Origin experience. The Kiwis clearly forgot the script late on in that game

Come 4N's time when Australia play England, I fully expect Gould's opinion on Ellis and Co to be appropriately negative as the agenda shifts thusly.



Ad hominem responses do not constitute a valid argument. If you're going to "big-up" a player and claim he's a world beater who is mashing/crushing/ripping it up in the NRL, it might be an idea to do so when he's actually played well and not when he's missed 6 tackles and executed 3 incomplete tackles, which is way more than any other Wests Tigers player that night.

Where a player was born is less relevant than...

1. Where the player currently lives.
2. Where the player currently has citizenship and passport.
3. Where the player learnt his RL trade.

Of the players alluded to earlier who weren't born in Australia... Hunt, Civoniceva, Mason, Kaufusi, Tuqiri... each and every one of them emigrated to Australia at a young age, learned their RL via the Australian system and are all legitimate Australian citizens by choice.

I look forward to your castigation of the Welsh side in the 4N with all those non-Welsh born players playing for them.

yep well done....thats him playing as a 2nd rower,doing hard yards and hard graft up the middle...offloading is'nt a priority........

and if your doubting gareths offload abilities go type gareth ellis - amazing flick pass into a popular video website...and while your there watch the near 6min highlights video from the 09-10 season.....its also notable that most of his trys and lot of his breaks come from the position...

He was MOM! If he wins it having a bad game imagine how good his best games must be!!

Luke Burgess had another solid game for the Bunnies yesterday, he has been a bit of a revelation so far.

I thought Burgess and the other sub forward (17) coimng off the bench turned the game for Sth's. He was very solid with his hit ups and his final fling out at the end won them the game.

Graham, Peacock, Morley, Roby, Crabtree and Westwood have all shown a more prolific offloading ability at international level than Ellis has, and they also do the hard yards and graft up the middle. Perhaps we could play any of the above at centre in order to utilise their superior offloading abilities instead?





Thanks for the one isolated example of an amazing flick pass offload by Ellis. Yes, get him playing in the centres immediately! In fact, let's go the whole hog and play 17 forwards... 7 of them in the backs.

Indeed, the mind boggles sometimes when MoM awards are handed out... particularly when one considers a player has missed 6 tackles and 3 incomplete tackles bearing in mind that's one of his most important functions to execute properly.

I recall Darren Lockyer getting the MoM award in the World Cup Final, despite dropping the ball in the process of scoring what should have been a try, and despite the Kiwis winning the World Cup.

Played very well at the weekend and is performing far better than one could have expected down under at such an early stage. This is in stark contrast to Gareth Ellis who struggled in the NRL at first and required a [url=http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/rl-headlines/ex_rhino_ellis_has_to_go_back_to_basics_1_2205303BACK TO BASICS[/url learning program in order to kick-start his NRL career.