Hes got one more assist, and apart from that, an ageing SL player comming to the end of his career, out performs the youthful Tim SMith on statistics by a hell of a lot. But then I dont need the statistics to see who the better player is.

but you still went looking for them

Yes, and?

I'll be amazed when you submit a post without mentioning Wigan.

But I thought you said that the Saints way was producing young quality Saints born players?

Make your mind up.

come on! it's not like he's obsessed with us... his sig what..?

Apart from winning Grand Finals, of course.

I again just ask you to elaborate further but you refuse. It's either a waste of time or you cannot be bothered. Stick to one excuse. Just accept some people may have different opinions on certain players. I am not biased at all, I think I was quite fair to be honest. I accept both players have weaknesses but stress that they have talent and a lot of potential to progress further into excellent players. Your dismissal of the talents of both players while claiming to have seen a lot of them and not be biased is just amusing. How anybody who has seen both lads play since they were 16 and think that they do not have the potential quite clearly lack judgement and any knowledge of rugby league.

Your inability to reply to my questions and opinions due to you not being bothered seems to indicate so.

Have you not learnt that he is obsessed with Wigan yet? Just look at his signature

You do realise that there are about 4 youngsters in the Saints squad, all fighting over replacing the legend, Sean Long dont you.

4 average youngsters, yes

And are they all of this "quality" you are referring to?

Yes

So let me get this straight.

Sam Tomkins and Sean Ainscough don't fall into this "quality catergory".

But these four players which I ask you to name do.

This should be good.

I'll give you Eastmond and that'll be it.

1. Paul Wellens
2. Ade Gardner
3. Matt Gidley
5. Francis Meli
6. Leon Pryce
7. Sean Long
8. Jason Cayless
9. Keiron Cunningham
10. James Graham
11. Lee Gilmour
12. Jon Wilkin
13. Chris Flannery
14. James Roby
15. Bryn Hargreaves
16. Tony Puletua
17. Paul Clough
18. Kyle Eastmond
19. Chris Dean
20. Gareth Frodsham
21. Gary Wheeler
22. Shaun Magennis
23. Maurie Fa'asavalu
24. Andrew Dixon
25. Jamie Foster
26. Andrew Yates
27. Jamie Ellis
28. Matty Ashurst
29. Tom Armstrong
30. Jonny Lomax
31. Jacob Emmitt

Add to that Gardner, Wilkin, Hargreaves and Fa'asavalu were young players with no experience of top level rugby before joining the S and have been developed into established first team players within international honours.

That wouldn't be the same Bryn Hargreaves with no top level Rugby experience that had already played 33 Superleague games for Wigan would it?

Or is there another one.

So your best starting 17 would only include 5 players from inside the club, and two of those are Wellens and Cunningham, who have been there for over 10 years.

So much for talent development since Super duper league eh.

beat me to it!

I find it funny that Wigan fans dispute Saints' youth system when it has produced the last 2 man of steel winners whilst their world beating prospects have have them languishing out of the play-offs.

[/urlwww.sportinglife.com/rugbyleague/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rleague/09/04/29/RUGBYL_St_Helens.html[url

Some comments that might be relevent to the discusion.[/url

and roby was such a deserving winner

Ahem......

Yes he was, everyone thought so. Well everyone who doesn't own a "Trent's so great I turned bent" t-shirt.

no, but really...

Darn beat me to it.

I don't want to joint this childish arguement you are having.

I just wanted you all to know how sad (and ironic in a way) that a really intelligent well thought out document like this. Which stated the need as a sport for us to unite and create a better international competition to improve the game and help secure its very future. Has resulted in a petty squabble between rival clubs fans.

Regardless of how many young British players and how few second rate kiwis/aussies your team have it just is not good enough. It does not matter how many young players you can count in your team, ever club needs to do better.

There is no point in finger pointing. As a country all 12 english full time clubs need to do more to provide for the national team and put short term individual success to the side.