Solution? No, hence the

Always travelling i think you've hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately you've posted this on the VT, so stand back and be prepared for a tsunami of abuse from the pro licencing brigage who don't give a stuff about anything below super dooper league.

Am I included in that?

"The reason the teams below super league are part time and have small crowds is because of the fact there is no dream, nothing to aspire to, yes you can win the respective league that you are in but what happens then?"

Is the lack of aspiration the reason in cloud cucko land that Championship sides aren't full time and play in front of a few hundred spectators? It certainly isn't the reason in the real world. Find me a year when the equivalent of the Championship (e.g. the old Second Division) under P&R ever had 'big' crowds apart from the odd team. That is another myth, albeit a new one to me. I'm sure I used to watch Bramley play local derbies in front of 500 people and some games with less than that. Maybe the other 9,000 were in the bar?

Arguing with anti-liscening types is like arguing with creationists.

Evidence and logic isn't their strong point.

* Correction - for "lower league" substitute "totally seperate league".

What he means is stick your fingers in your ears, go "lalala" and lie a lot.

So why weren't the crowds huge in the P&R days? The crowds aren't that much different. You need to find some other excuses...

or support the current lower tiers properly and all the clubs in them

Or we end up with a shrinking sport

No ' excuses ' , just reasons , lots of them , not just no P and R

Then once you identify the reasons , find a solution , that will only happen if you admit there is a problem in the 1 st place , if you keep saying everything is ' rosy ' enough you start to believe it , and then it is too late to stop the decline

Poor club management at all levels , even poorer management at the top level

P&R is a cop out until there's actual evidence of it being a reason. The attendances at most clubs have barely changed.

Nobody is saying that everything is rosey. There's always room for improvement. The problem with way too many fans in our sport is that they expect perfection instantly and they will ALWAYS be disappointed. If they are disappointed, then it's a farce/disgrace/outrageous/etc.

So, there has been no relegation and promotion in Rugby League since 1895 ...?



That's so, so damaging for Association Football too.

And to recall ancient times yet again, I'm no Murdoch fan, but it's a damned sight better than what happened, in terms of TV coverage, before the Sky deal.



They didn't and haven't.

HTH.



Yes. Because since the beginning of time, RL has never ever had promotion and relegation.

Well 10 years ago the top NFP clubs were getting attendances sometimes of 4/5 even 6,000 for big games , now 2,700 is considered a large attendance , in fact it is the reason I no longer attend , and I personally know of quite a few others , it just isn't the same

So lets see something being done to ' improve '

Live TV coverage is pointless for the Championships , the clubs recieve no money for it at all , it should not happen

Does anyone have factual knowledge of where the TV rights money from Premier Sports goes? Surely some funds of some sorts must be pumped into the Championship one way or another by the RFL?

That was not the point the poster I responded to made – they made a very generalised point – and not my response.

There was no coverage of the lower-division clubs in the pre-Sky days either – and there was next to no top-clight league coverage either. We'd get some Challenge Cup and the Regal Trophy (or the Floodlit one, back in the really olden days).

The point is that there is no halcyon time in the past when coverage was generally good. What is available today, therefore, is better than what went before, in terms of the sport in general.

No, it's not perfect (whatever that would be), but it is better.

If TV coverage is worth so much in developing a sport, then is it better to have Championship games televised, even if with no direct revenue, or not at all?

Crowds go down -> I stop attending.

Anybody spotted the flaw in that reasoning?

Do you have data to support that?

Comments from a certain Tommy Cunningham Chief Exec of a certain Leigh based RL club, in 2002, about the NFP, [iThe NFP is Poverty City. Salford and Warrington could find it tough even to survive.

"It's hell at this level. We are doing everything in our power to get out of it and join Super League.

"It's bleak. We are winning and yet our attendances have dropped by 1,000 for some reason.

"When we play at Gateshead in midweek there will be more athletes training on the track than people watching the game!

"This is par for the course - Chorley and Swinton regularly play in front of fewer than 300. [/i

Leigh's average in 2006 2 years proir to the first 'franchise season' was 2281, Leigh attendane in 2011, 2 seasons after the first 'franchise season' was 2379.

Halifax's average attendance in 2006 was 1681 and halifax's average attendance in 2011 was 1886

So you dont attend games because fewer people go, which in itself is a strange logic, it gets even stranger when you look at the fact that slightly more people actually attend.

What sort of crowds did Halifax and Leigh average when they were in Super League?

And what was Leigh's average in 2004?

The 2006 figures are for the year after Leigh dropped out. The 'dream was over season'. But in 2004 and seasons prior to that, I recall many gates >3000.

4800

i dont know for 2004, but i do know that in 2007 they averaged 1867, in 2008 2490, in 2009 1984, 2010, 2087, and in 2011 2379,

which shows that since franchising was announced in 2008, the 1st 4 seasons of there being no promotion based on winning the GF, Leigh's attendances are higher than the preceeding 2 seasons of automatic promotion. Showing that the idea that P+R has caused attendances to drop at leigh to be an incorrect one.

Leigh in 2005 - 4,736
Halifax in 2003 - 2,977 including a crowd of 1,276 v London

How did I know that you would pick THAT year for Halifax?

In the other 7 years we were in SDL the average was around double that.