he was injured a lot Johns

Says similar in Frank's book I believe

I used to talk regularly to a Newcastle Knights fanatic in Australia around the time and Knights supporters were devastated when Matty Johns left the Knights. I think a lot of people over here were comparing him to his brother which meant whatever he did was never going to be good enough, nobody could come close to Andrew Johns at that time other than Darren Lockyer but Matty Johns was a great player in his own right. You could see with some of his touches that there was a much better player under what we were seeing. I think as has been said, he wasnt 100% fit and i dont think he ever particularly settled here.

Yes the Knights fans are very attached to their home grown players. They were really gutted to lose the semi final to the Roosters in 2000 when they blew a big lead. The script had been written for the Johns brothers to win a second Grand Final together before Matty headed to England. In the event they won it the next year but Matty wasn't there. Brett Kimmorley came through the Knights juniors at the same time as the Johns brothers, they were stacked for halfback talent.

There had been a lot of chopping and changing in the halves in that era for Wigan....Paul/Smith, Florimo/Clinch, Peters/Farrell, Lam/Johns, Lam/O'Neill, it was a different partnership every year and probably didn't help with consistency.

then Orr and Lam, I agree with that

It still blows my mind that this was ever seen as a good idea. Good lord. A lot of the others were great players, we just didn't keep them around long enough (or couldn't, in cases like Willie Peters).

I'll also never really understand why we didn't give Luke Robinson a go and instead ended up with Orr (who was mostly useless as I recall) and Moran in later years. I mean I know one of the stories about why he was let go (re: Pongia) but surely it was more than that?

Orr was good, Robinson was moved on for having a big mouth if I recall, Clinch and Chester was a worse selection

I think Lindsay and then Whelan were struggling to adapt to the SL era and the rise of Bradford and Saints and were acting like those presidents of the galacticos European football teams who like shopping for players and changing coaches in the hope that something works. Halifax had a great season in 1998 and were the team on the rise, so their best players Florimo, Chester and Clinch turn up at Wigan. Orr was the rising star at Cas, so they get him in. Moran was a one-man team in London, so they get him in.

It was a strategy that kept Wigan trapped just below the top tier, they had a rotating door of talented players who came in and out but they didn't have the stable core that Bradford, Saints and Leeds did, other than Farrell, and when he left the foundations caved in rapidly. It was similar to the Sydney Roosters in the 1990s (when Lam was there), they were the 'transit lounge' for big names coming and going then something clicked in the early 2000s when Ricky Stuart was coach and they dominated the NRL for a while.

In the 2010s Wigan had a different approach, much more strategic, no vanity signings, mostly a home grown core and then some signings strategically bought in. Some of these, Blake Green, Matty Smith, were like Clinch in that around the league people thought is this guy really a Wigan calibre player, but they fit the team and what Wane was trying to build.

I remember early in 2004 seeing an interview with Mike Gregory when he was hinting at changing the culture in the direction of the type of thing Wane would later bring in - moving away from big names and big egos towards building the squad around the generation of talent coming through. Obviously tragic events intervened but if that hadn't happened, it would have been interesting to see if Whelan would have had the patience for MGs approach. He soon reverted to type, bringing in Millward and then going on that big recruitment spree for 2006 which completely tanked.

we signed Florimo from Aus, was a rumour all year since Henry Paul said he was going to leave, he went to Fax from us, we signed Clinch and Chester after Fax stuffing us in the season I think they were mid season transfers, thats how desperate we were, Blake Green was awesome

Ah yeah I got Florimo's clubs the wrong way round. In 99 there was a weird level of panic around Wigan and Goodway. I wonder how much of it was affected by the pressure to leave Central Park with another title, it was a strange dynamic with Hanley coaching Saints too.

Watching the season review of the 94/95 season the other day, and that team was a try scoring machine. Henry Paul, Offiah, Robinson, Connolly, Inga, Edwards, and Botica, plus a young Radlinski, Murdoch was decent, and even Sean Long and Barry John Mather breaking through to chip in.

that was my best backline also

As an outsider I thought 94/95 was 'peak Wigan' of all their dominant years. The year before under Dorahy Wigan hadn't been the same side and nearly got chased down by Wire and Bradford. People were starting to say the chinks were showing and the end of the dynasty was in sight. Then in 94/95 Wigan went on to another level.

I also think RL as a sport peaked around that time, at least in my lifetime watching (1989 - ). There were so many quality players around and also some iconic teams. As well as Wigan there was Mal Meninga's Canberra Raiders in Aus. I thought GB under Mal Reilly/Ellery Hanley had a cracking side at that time but they were surpassed by a great Kangaroos team.

However, a lot of the game's best players were late into their careers then: Hanley, Gregory, Davies, Schofield, Offiah, Edwards and as the retirements started the quality of RL went in to a steep decline in the first few years of summer rugby.

I remember seeing that Bradford team of 97 that was unbeaten at the time it clinched the title on points and thinking, a couple of years ago this team wouldn't have got near Wigan. Even the Wigan team that won in 98 was a long way off the teams of the past. You could also see by the calibre of Aussie players who were able to be dominant players here. Clinch had his great season with Halifax, and then Adrian Vowles won Man of Steel.

The game picked up in standard again in the early 2000s with the Saints and Bradford teams of the era and then Leeds and I think we had another peak around mid 2000s, Wigan were on a down spell then though.

Indeed. I think at the end of that season Clarke and Betts went down under, with Botica leaving also, and by the end of the final winter season, Offiah had moved on as well. The 94/95 team had some real quality in depth, with guys like Acheson, Radlinski, Murdoch, McDermott, Cassidy not first choice, and Haughton et al coming through. Sadly guys like Haughton never had the sustained impact of Betts, who he replaced, which is a shame as he looked like he would be a world beater.

Offiah made 10 appearances in 96 and then went to London. He played in a the two Bath games and the 7s.

Radlinski, Robinson, Tuigamala, Connolly, Offiah, Paul, Edwards.

That was Wigans back line in their opening Superleague game at Oldham. Still the best back line ever in Superleague history IMO.

The Bradford side circa 2001-2003 didn't have a bad backline.

Withers, Vaikona, Naylor, Hape, Vainikolo, Henry, Robbie.

none of them are better than Wigans backline man for man

Not all those Bradford players were there at the same time...Henry Paul never played with Vainikolo or Hape. They had Spruce, McAvoy, Brooker, Costin, Harris (Ben and Iestyn) in there at various times.

I think Hape was the best, he was maybe underrated, and he missed some long spells with injury.

Vainikolo...not as good as Tuigamala. He was a juggernaut when in full flow but he could be targeted too with teams putting kicks on the ground behind him, he was slow and could be clumsy on the turn.

But in the final third of that last Grand Final winning season, in 2005, the Hape-Vainikolo combination was unstoppable. They were savaging teams like Miles and Offiah.

St Helens had a good back line at the time as well, with Wellens, Albert, Lyon, Talau and Gardner.

Well there's my dodgy memory for ya. Deacon would have been in the halves though you're right.

Inga and Robinson were better, again with the saints team none were better man for man than that Wigan back line

On Henry Paul....how good do you think he was, really?

I have never made my mind up on whether he was just very good (eg Robbie) or absolute world class.

He had a bit of Cristiano Ronaldo about him, in that he wasn't just content to be a ball playing talent, but developed a rock solid physique, made sure there weren't really any flaws in his game. He also had that swaggering arrogance.

Was his departure for Bradford the key factor that tipped the balance away from Wigan to Bradford over the next few years?

It seemed to weaken Wigan a lot when HP left, but Bradford seemed to take it in their stride when he left them. Maybe the way they were winning games meant that they were less reliant on a great 6. And also was why it was a bad business decision for them a few years later to tie so much of the salary cap in bringing Iestyn Harris in.

When Jon Dorahy was at Wire, he seemed to be searching for a Henry Paul for us. He brought two young New Zealanders over: Toa Kohe-Love and Nigel Vagana, who were both billed as "the next Henry Paul" when we signed them. They both ended up being good players although centres rather than the stand-offs they were talked of as when we signed them. I think NV played stand-off in the game after Dorahy had been sacked when we beat Wigan (he got a hat-trick).

one of the most naturally gifted players i've ever seen, remember being at central park on a cold wednesday night and he murdered us on his own for wakefield, you could see then how good he was at 19

I think Henry Paul was at his best when he first joined Wigan. He was like a ghost moving across the field and he scored his best tries in those first couple of seasons. In his last couple of years he seemed to lose a bit of spark, still a great player but not quite as dangerous. Then he joined Bradford and seemed to recapture his form.

I have fond memories of Paul always scoring tries against Saints, usually ones that sealed the game for us. He could be very quiet in a game and then just step forward and ghost through the defence.

He was certainly the most stylish player ive ever watched. Almost everytime he took the ball to the line he looked to spin out of the tackle. His balance was superb, almost like he was floating in zero gravity at times.

He was world class but not in an orthodox way. He had a unique style and way of playing the game that ive not seen before or since.

Correct, a outstanding talented player just like his brother Robbie.