The difference between the pioneering changes of the past and the sort of expansion being touted here, is that the fan base was never at risk.

Removing line-outs and 2 players, the various league structures, the move to summer, Super League, play-offs - none of this affected the fact that families who had watched their club for generations kept that tradition and would still go to watch their team, rain, wind or shine.

These areas have junior and open age amateur teams, many of the schools play RL, it's in the local press almost every day, there are local and historical rivalries. Many of the players are locals. There is loyalty, tradition and heritage. The club is part of the community. Catalans actually have that longstanding heritage and tradition having been formed via the merger of XIII Catalan and St Esteve XIII, teams formed in 1934 and 1965 respectively. They aren't an 'expansion' team in the manner of Toronto.

However, as we've repeatedly seen, engaging locals enough to go to games in brand new expansion areas is massively difficult. They will have their own interests - football, RU, cricket, cycling, fishing, gaming, etc. Whatever support base you do manage to create is enormously fickle. There may be a small hardcore but the majority will drift in & out, and if the club fails on the pitch they will lose interest and eventually the whole thing collapses. All of this has been demonstrated repeatedly. So build slowly, build success off and on the field, build a loyal following and we might see different results.

Let's say Widnes is thrown out for Toronto. They survive but lose fans and interest. 2 years later Wakefield is dropped for Toulouse and go bust after 18 months. Straight away the decreasing pool of RL fans and engagement in the UK is suddenly smaller, and we've killed off generations of loyalty and tradition. RL in the UK is weaker. How on earth is this a positive development?

2 years later Toronto's owner pulls the plug. Toulouse struggle to win and drop out of SL...and the the pool of traditional RL in the UK they replaced has already been lost. We are all significantly weaker for the irrational drive for expansion at any cost.

RL in the UK simply cannot afford to take those gambles. I love what's going on in Toronto and a North American league would be fantastic, but we cannot weaken the game in the UK under any circumstances.

That's a new one. We're all dying off.



You're absolutely correct. RL in the north needs to be strengthened, and expansion sides need support. But it has to be a slow burn and not at the expense of destroying existing RL support and tradition - we are simply not big or strong enough for that. I'm also strongly of the view any team entering SL should do so on merit, not location.

The Catalans win could indeed be a great boost - let's see how effectively it's marketed.

They'd be idiots not to get another game in Barcelona ASAP.

Barcelona would be a great venue for "Magic"

Catalans success has been inspirational to Red Star Belgrade, as well as all expansion clubs who play the game outside the m62. What a great news story for our sport. A Rugby League Revolution has started. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/45322452

Catalans success has been inspirational to Red Star Belgrade, as well as all expansion clubs who play the game outside the m62. What a great news story for our sport. A Rugby League Revolution has started. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/45322452

Yet the likes of Wakefield, Huddersfield and Leigh have been around for over a hundred years and still bring nothing to the table

Regards

King James

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Catalans success has been inspirational to Red Star Belgrade, as well as all expansion clubs who play the game outside the m62. What a great news story for our sport. A Rugby League Revolution has started. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/45322452'" Catalans success is great news for ALL clubs who haven't won a major trophy in years/decades , to go from MPG to Cup winners in 11 months gives all clubs hope

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Catalans success has been inspirational to Red Star Belgrade, as well as all expansion clubs who play the game outside the m62. What a great news story for our sport. A Rugby League Revolution has started. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/45322452'" Catalans success is great news for ALL clubs who haven't won a major trophy in years/decades , to go from MPG to Cup winners in 11 months gives all clubs hope

Remember going to Perpignan in 2012 and talking to the guy who does Catalan Sports Tours. He was saying after the first game they took to Barcelona the Dragons asked the RFL if they'd help financially to make it a regular thing and were told no. If true, the mind boggles considering some of the crap they've wasted money on expansion wise (and in general).

Yet without these type of teams there would not be a table. These areas have sustained the sport for over 100 years is another way of looking at it.

Why should the RFL help fund it? Why can’t Catalans do it themselves?

The greatest form of expansion of RL would be to see RU clubs switch over to real rugby. Wouldn't you all agree??

The only thing about expansion is the player pool is the player pool. An expansion side just takes players from the same player pool who would be playing for the team the expansion side would replace in front of a few more fans and either a token homegrown player who gets no minutes or absolutely no homegrown players at all.

It’s not more exotic sounding place names we need, it’s a bigger player pool. Expansion will only work if there is already a player pool in the area there is a new team being established.

Catalans and Toulouse have French lads, Toronto are just Leigh in Canada. They could be anyone, anywhere. It doesn’t matter, they just have players from the same player pool as everyone else.

Expansion needs to be more investment put into grassroots so we have a bigger player pool, not necessarily the Azores Albertrosses being given a place in the Championship just because it sounds good.

We could add Boston and New York as well as Toronto to SL but all that does is add flight prices and travel times, it doesn’t actually add anything else that Salford have already brought to SL. It’d just be the same players playing for them as play for Salford now.

Not necessarily just about increasing the player pool. Melbourne Storm have produced barely any local players but the increased media profile from having a successfull, well supported Melbourne team in the comp will have been worth it financially for the NRL.

Nope. The actual issue is - get more funding or die. Expansion is obviously one way to do this, but throwing away existing clubs does not help this.

It was never really about expansion - its always about money.

Craven Park on a Sunny Sunday afternoon.

Rugby league has been played in Melbourne and the wider state of Victoria since 1914.

The Great Britain Northern Union toured Australia and NZ in 1914 and played NSW in Melbourne in front of 13000.

There was a Victoria RL Premiership running from the 1920s onwards and became an official league in 1952. There has always been a player pool there.

Over the decades the NSW comp played games over in Melbourne due to the popularity of the sport over there even with it being an AFL hotbed.

SOO played its first game in Melbourne in 1990 in front of 25000, four years later the same game attracted 87000.

Melbourne Storm came about because of huge interest in the sport in the city going back a century.

Catalans deserved the win on the day but it has nothing to do with the fact that they are based in France. They were the better of the 2 teams that played.

For all the big talk on here and if Toulouse also get into SL for next year, if, in 10 years time, if there are zero extra fully pro teams in France, will people finally accept that RL in France is as regional and as 'failing' as it is in the UK?

For those expansionists another simple question - if SL went up to 14 and only 2 non-SL clubs could be added with one being Toronto - should the other be Red Star Belgrade or Toulouse?

Sorry, I should have said relegation from "Super League"

Just like Belle Vue then

Batley has a good feel/atmosphere these days. You expansionists should go down sometime

I was there in 2016 when Salford played them. Yes was a good atmosphere.

Yet there's still only Mahe Fonua who's from Melbourne so it's quite clearly an example of successful expansion despite the fact that the player pool hasn't been increased.

There's a place for both but it has to be given time and at the right pace, or have the right funding in place with a guarantee that the owner/main financial backers won't pull the plug after two seasons.

For me, there's a few areas already in our leagues that could strengthen the sport considerably - London, Coventry, Newcastle and York but to name a few, along with Sheffield, who could all offer much more in terms of vibrancy and city name.

Rugby League as a whole needs to decide on where it wants to go and support these sides. The sooner we can get them to the top the better the sport will be. And that's with no disrespect to team like Halifax, Featherstone, Batley and Dewsbury but their commercial and growth potential is limited because they're in a saturated area already.

If we can expand within the UK reasonably then it should please both sides of the fence. The fact is that if there was a real appetite for the local communities around these locations to get them up, they'd have more fans and money than they have now. And that's the problem, you either move with the times or get left behind and fall down the ladder.

That's the same for Cumbria. If you want a SL outfit, get your heads together about the best way to do that. The RFL can't force clubs to do anything about it, the will has to be there themselves.

Imagine a top flight of

Catalans
Coventry
Newcastle
Toronto
York

+ 9 existing SL outfits

Yes I've been selective in teams included but for me Coventry, York and Newcastle are the areas we should be absolutely hammering. Coventry is the gateway to the Midlands, York because it doesn't have any major sporting outfits and is a rich area, and Newcastle as it's the gateway to the North East.

Following the success of Bristol in the World Cup, it's a shame that we haven't got more of a presence down there either.

It isn't necessarily about losing what we have but opening the doors and generating new teams with new audiences to add to what we have. For me, the biggest problem is that there isn't a link up between the top tiers and the amateur game which football has. So someone like Salford City, AFC Wimbledon, Ebbsfleet can buy *cough* I mean invest their way up the ladder. Why aren't we doing the same with amateur clubs? Why isn't there joined up thinking? Why is it even a case that we have summer seasons and winter seasons nowadays?

Where's the joined up thinking? I've just had a look at the National Conference Leagues and they're all northern based. Why aren't any southern amateur teams in these? Why don't we have divisions where Bedford Tigers can play Lock Lane while Southend Sharks visit London Chargers or Gateshead Storm play Waterhead? Why don't we have promotion between League 1 and the National Conference League with minimum standards for each?

It's time to get a grip across the game and have clear Tiered teams with the ability for someone with money and sponsors to invest in someone like London Chargers and take them to the top without the need of having to faff around with the RFL's application process and shoehorning them into League 1. If someone wants to set up a team put them in the Bachelor's Mushy Peas Regional Conference South or North Division at the bottom.

If new teams from overseas want to come in then fine but start at the bottom or let's create a league under the auspices of the RFL. What exactly are the FFR doing in France? Why aren't they driving governance of their own division? Why aren't they going out getting sponsors in? What exactly have they done over the last decade that Catalans have been in the league? They're sat on their thumbs. Who is asking these questions? Where's the ambition for a successful France team?