GutterFax says
but let's compare Barrow to the rest. Catalans and Quins tick the expansion box...as do the Wrexham Crusaders, so it's unlikely that they would make way...HKR are building things at Caravan park, so will probably be OK as well, leaving Wakey, Castleford and Salford to maybe be replaced by teams from outside the SL. Widnes have the ground, the fanbase to build on and a very wealthy backer....and should be first choice.....so which of the three above do you believe Barrow are best placed to replace? All 3 have been warned that their stadiums are an issue....but all 3 hold more than Craven Park........I doubt very much a 4 point score would replace another 4 point score......so to answer the OP......Barrow aren't ready yet and I honestly think that even the promise of 4.5 mil over 3 years wouldn't be enough.....
Barrow are a great club, with a great history, but there is no way they are ready for the top league.....it could well ruin them IMO. Cut your cloth accordingly...carry on winning things at CH level and eventually a backer will come in and make it less of a gamble for you to apply and win a place in SL.......


Barrow dont have another club within the 20 miles quoted, so that another point.
You say HKR are building things , well so are we, Yes its on a smaller scale but we have built a new stand when plenty of othershave not, we are getting our house in order both on and off the field.

Finally some good news re youth & academy's

BARROW RAIDERS

UNDER 18s STRUCTURES

2010-11 SEASONS

1. BARROW LAIKERS
Barrow Raiders will again be involved in running a team in the Gillette National Youth League for the 2010-11 and 2011 seasons (dates TBC due to likely season shift to summer). We would like to involve the amateur game more successfully in the Laikers. Our aim is to offer an Extended Scholarship programme for U18s, many of whom could play age-graded rugby for the Laikers.

2. EXTENDED SCHOLARSHIPS
Barrow Raiders recently attended an RFL presentation on changes in the scholarship structure. The RFL are suggesting that Championship clubs develop Extended Scholarships at U18s, whilst supporting and playing an active role in Service Area and Regional squads at age grades under 16s as a partner. We believe that this will be a positive move for the game at both pro and community level, and are keen to buy into the structure effectively

3. PRO CONTRACTS
The club has recently expressed an interest, through the appropriate channels, in a number of talented young local players currently on existing scholarships at other professional clubs. These players will be moving from U16s to U17s/U18s at the end of August, and Barrow would like to offer them a long-term opportunity with the club to bring them "home".

4. NEXT STEPS
Barrow Raiders wish to involve the amateur game at youth and open-age level in this process, and would like to invite coaches and club officials to a presentation where we will discuss this in more detail.

The principles of this will be:

Invitations will be sent out via the Barrow and District League (this email)

Clubs to pass this invitation to appropriate officials within their club
The presentation will take place at Barrow Raiders on Tuesday 22nd June at 8.00pm
Barrow Raiders staff or coaches WILL NOT approach any players for Barrow Laikers or Extended Scholarships until AFTER this date, and will liaise with player's clubs in the first instance

We would like, ideally, to recruit for Barrow Laikers U18s from the week commencing Monday 28th June, once young player's exam commitments have ended
We would like to involve people from the amateur game in the running of Barrow Laikers to ensure that it has a positive impact on the recruitment and retention of 16-18 year olds in the local game
5. ACTIONS
Please could all club officials take this to the appropriate personnel within their club. The presentation will be most relevant to current U16s coaches, who will be familiar with the age group concerned and may want to refer lads to the Laikers if they are happy with the programme. The presentation will also be important to open-age coaches, who may have concerns about the impact on A-team and 1st team rugby. If your club does not run a 16s or open-age team, you are more than welcome to attend as we believe that this structure is ultimately important to all clubs.

Better late than never, from little acorns etc

I admit I was wrong regarding the 20 mile radius.....total brain fart there



Still, I was also generous with the point for 8th or higher....in that it would be impossible to score that from the Championship.....but either way, you fall down on point 1. Craven Park does not and will not, hold 12,000 or anything near that in the near future and that's where the RFL/SL will sink any application.

I have no issue with clubs applying...but I still say, Barrow stay in the Championship, keep winning and sooner rather than later, someone will be prepared to bankroll an application. At that stage, with a plan to add the 5k stand required, planning permission granted and funding in place, THEN apply. The 4.5 million over 3 years should only be used to get a squad together that can compete......not for building work.

Shame you are quoting the criteria from 2008.
I believe the standards for 2012 aren't as high for Championship clubs. 10,000 stadium with at least 2,000 seats gets a tick. 2,500 average crowd gets a tick. Both are achieveable in time for 2012. I'm not saying it will happen, but certainly achieveable and nowhere near the criteria you're banging on about.

Barrow's capacity has rose by a thousand from last season, we can achive a 10'000 stadium with a fair few additional crush barriers and a stand extention without changing the grounds footprint, so to speak.

So its not impossible.

Gutterfax quotes the guidelines which were used in 2008 to determine whether clubs which were already in superleague would keep their places. These guidelines are irrelevant to the question of admitting clubs from outside superleague, whether these are existing Championship clubs like Widnes and Barrow or totally new clubs.

SLE is a business venture and any new admissions will be decided on business grounds, particularly whether or not an applicant offers anything new to the enterprise. Success on the playing field has little to do with it. The gap between Super League and the rest is so wide that any new admission would have to recruit a complete new playing and coaching staff.

Widnes already have several strikes against them. The major one is that the region the club is located in is already over-saturated with Super League clubs. Widnes offer nothing new at all. People on this forum remember Widnes's glory days from the 70's and 80's but the fact is that for most of the twentieth century they were an average mid-table side existing in the shadows of St Helens, Wigan and Warrington. Even in the glory days they never attracted either the crowds or the corporate sponsorship needed to support a major club and they always ended up selling their best players in order to survive. Their most recent attempt to survive at the top level failed.

Barrow at least offers access to a region (Cumbria) which has a strong rugby league tradition and should stand a better chance of admission than any other championship club apart from Toulouse. No other club from the tradional regions has any more to offer than the clubs already in Super League.

In my opinion all the current Super League clubs will retain their places next time round although Cas and Wakey may be offered an incentive to merge. If the merger comes off, Toulouse or Barrow may get a place.

'Strikes'? Are you inventing a new set of criteria all of your own?

And whats this bit about 'offering something new'? Where does it say we have to offer something new to gain a SL license? Did Salford offer something new, other than a new low in attendances?

'Our most recent attempt at top level survival failing'? Well, P&R was in place at the time, so SOMEBODY had to go down and it just so happened there was a higher relegation place that year too. We had some decent years in SL, with some big performances, and got some very big scalps along the way including Leeds Rhinos several times in one season. We only just missed playoff rugby in our first SL season.

Also on that 'failing' note, the SL licensing committee last time told us we couldnt consider ourselves to be the same entity as the previous company, and use past glories/crowds etc as part of our bid, and were therefore treated like a company who had existed for a few months. Well, if theyre playing that card, it SHOULDNT be allowed to work BOTH WAYS for them, and we shouldnt be hampered by the sins and performance of our former company and directors, none of whom are now associated with the company. I suspect SOC will make that point abundantly clear to them if they try to do that as a means of rejecting us.

For someone that allegedly lives in such a fantastic spot you really do talk garbage.

I'm guessing you are a pommie migrant.

Cas and wakey are as likely to merge as Saints and Wigan

Grounds, Grounds, Grounds, blah blah blah.... Bollocks!

I am a Barrow fan and I DO NOT want a SL franchise in 2012!!!

The whole franchise system is arbitrary, subjective and does little but cause fans of clubs to throw stones at each other regarding their relative performance against the criteria.

The reason I don't want a franchise is that financial figures for all SL clubs for the past 5 years and more show a very depressing forcast for the sport. In fact if we are honest, SL is financially unsustainable.

The only club not to lose money in the previous financial year was Leeds and this was only achieved by selling the cricket ground, a feat I would be amazed to see them repeat next year. One SL club posted losses in excess of three times the "healthy profit" the RFL recorded when it crowed about the sport being in rude health.

So with this depressing forcast for our sport are we the fans approaching the RFL and asking that they provide financial governance, set individual salary caps, reduce costs caused by expansion, relax ground development criteria or improve the sports publicity and profile?

Are we f***!

We are on here slagging each others grounds off as we squabble between ourselves in attempt to get a seat at the big boys table. Well let me tell you, when you get there you will find there is nothing but a poisoned chalice to drink from!

I personally think the only club with a chance of making it is Widnes. They have what should be article number one on the franchise criteria; an extremely rich philanthropist as a chairman. Steve O'Connor is a real guy and a RL Clubs wet dream, he kept Widnes in business a few years ago, serviced their debts and invested in their team and development programmes. They have crowds rivalling current SL clubs and the business infrastructure to realise the potential revenues such crowds generate. (before anyone mentions Des and his "sugar daddy" role at Barrow, go and look at our accounts, they are all in the public domain as are every clubs)

Barrow as a club (and a business) need to consolidate their achievements to date and develop their business infrastructure, ground, development programmes (and relationships with the local amatuer scene) and establish the club as a stable financial concern with a view to applying for a franchise in 2015. I predict there may be a few vacancies by then as there is no end to the current recession in view, nor an end to SL clubs overspending.

I like you


As I have said....keep plugging away in the Chamionship...wait for the right backer to come along THEN apply.....there will be gaps sooner rather than later in the SL top table!

Good to see there are few more people seeing sense , I share your opinion , I dont and didn't want Leigh to get a franchise until we are in a position to sustain it

good post

Barry thinks I'm a pommy migrant!. The only people who migrate to Oz these days come by boat through Christmas Island. I'm a visitor. Someone has to teach you Bogans basic skills like how to tie your shoelaces and so on. Avalon is OK but not idyllic - Blackpool with sharks but better than East Cheam or wherever you live. If you're feeling homesick listen to this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=sopmZNqARwQ that is, if you can understand your own language.

Barry thinks I'm a pommy migrant!. The only people who migrate to Oz these days come by boat through Christmas Island. I'm a visitor. Someone has to teach you Bogans basic skills like how to tie your shoelaces and so on. Avalon is OK but not idyllic - Blackpool with sharks but better than East Cheam or wherever you live. If you're feeling homesick listen to this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=sopmZNqARwQ that is, if you can understand your own language.

I may be wrong but I understood the 10,000 stadium with 2000 seats and 2500 average crowd are minimum standards, ie without these they will not further consider an application, that does not actually get you any points.

The minimum standard is why Wakey Cas and Salford need new grounds - they don't have 2,000 seats. Also why Bradford & HKR did not get warnings.

Actually HKR are a great example, New Craven Park gets slated but is actually a very decent ground on two sides, the improvements to date suggest further development will happen.

As Gutterfax has stated elsewhere Barrow do have a number of strengths to any bid, however the ground as it stands is a showstopper. People may think that unfair, but those are the criteria, what Barrow need to do is not build a Halliwell Jones but get thier Craven Park to the standard of HKR's.

Can that be done for 2012? I don't know, but it would cost more than a few hundred grand. It certainly should be achievable for 2015, by which time other factors could make Barrow a shoe in.

Good thread this.

I think its a bit optimistic to think that Barrows side is 'almost' SL quality when they are only 4th in the Championship. So no, I think the barrow team would need more than just a 'few' additions. Players that are very good at CC level, such as broadbent who is playing brilliantly, would be caught out for pace/fitness in SL. Catic is still SL quality though!

I dont know where this has come from ? , Have the RFL issued a statement that I missed ?

Barrow currently have many players out injuried and have players missing from week 1 plus we still have games in hand of all the teams above them, so its a bit harsh to judge them on being 4th today.

I know you have players missing but TBH you would have to be absolutely walking it in the championship to be anywhere near SL level. 'Fax and Barrow have the best players on paper but 'Fev are probably the best 'team' this year and they are no where near SL so Barrow (IMO) are miles away from being competitive at SL level.

Mick if the current Barrow side were in SL you would be missing a lot more players now out through injury , it is a totally different game , Leigh ended up using 38 players in 2005 , we basically had a whole team of players out injured for the whole of the 2 nd half of the season , you have a good squad , quite possibly the best all round team in the Championship , and it will not surprise me if you make the GF again , but you are no where near a SL standard squad

Fev played very well at Warrington, Wire weren't poor either like you often see when its SL v Chp. Overall they're the best team i've seen at that level this year. Some of their defensive structures are SL like, very well coached but week in week out (which is where the problems come) their players would be badly found out.

We all know one off cup games v SL sides are a world apart than playing SL games every week, but Barrows recent games vs Wigan home, Saints & Cas away were fairly incouraging, Yes big big changes would need to be in place, but we have to be hopeful or whats the point ?

The point , well the same as it has always been , you go to the game and cheer your team ,

If you are suggesting that SL is the be all and end all , well IMO you are wrong , and you will be eternally dissapointed

I was more kinda trying to say that you have to be hopeful or optimistic or you'd be fretting all the time and thats what i dont see the point of, if you follow my drift.

About what ?