They are a way of controlling movement between leagues by a means other than the performance of a single team in a single season.



Only to the same extent that "regular" P&R is.

Whilst on the one hand theres is a free market economy, this is no doubt damaging to smaller clubs (which for some reason is ok on here if its a heartland club, which perplexes me as true rl fans should want the best for all clubs not just those in the elite league) who dont have the resources to compete, a fact that will only be made worse if larger club steal fans from them.

The most annoying thing though is that bradford bulls promotion in bradford is rubbish, i lived there for 4 years (left last year) and hardly saw any, there are thousands of people from the asian and student communities that hear virtually nothing about the bulls, why arent they are targeting these people on there own door stop?

Sorry, I don't see the logic in that argument.

I can't see how a system designed to protect teams for three years can be compared to end of season promotion based on finishing top.

As I have already said, I am not arguing the rights or wrongs of either system. Something had to be done to stabilise yo-yoing clubs and financial incompetence. But franchising IS protectionism.

One is for one set period, one is another set period. One is one year, one is three years. In this example.

Depends how far you want to define it. If you want to go that far, then the league structure is protectionism. It keeps clubs in a league with a regular set of fixtures for a set period regardless. You could call that "protectionism" and say the only way to have no protectionism is that all fixtures are ad-hoc arrangements between clubs.

The idea that any club should have a protected territory that no other RL club can recruit from (but an infinite number of other forms of entertainments and expenditure) can is ridiculous. Perhaps we should stick to discussing if that is right or wrong rather than splitting hairs over the definition of "protectionism" in sport.

Thats not quite true though is it?

There are more criteria for entry with franchising that regular P&R. A side that might have gained promotion through one system could be denied under another.

It is not inconceivable that the criteria could be changed to effectively make superleague a fully closed shop and the only time there is "relegation" is when a "developement" club comes along (or Sky say so

)

Which works both ways. A side that could be relegated under franchising could be protected from relegation by "regular" P&R.



If that happens, we'll come back to this debate then.

Actually on reflection that is a fair comment. I was visualising West Yorks in my head. Which given I spent years working in Normanton is a bit embarrassing...

I mentioned Cas and Wakey since you are the two clubs whose situation is most like ours in terms of geographical issues and other clubs (incl Fev, Hunslet, Dewsbury and Batley)
in what might otherwise be one of your hinterlands.

At least your ground is pretty central in Cas - south of Odsal your quickest way to Kirklees is across fields! But yes, you face a similar issue - and I recall from people I know who live in or near Cas that more than a few locals supported Leeds. Same as I recall some folk in the vilages round Fev (who I worked with) supported Cas. And if you live in say ossett who do you support?

Should someone draw a line saying if you live in Rothwell you should support Leeds (I have friends who do...) - or more to the point Hunslet, if you live in Woodlesford you should support Cas and if you live in Oulton you should support Wakey? And you are not allowed to support anyone else? (For non-locals, those three places comprise a single built-up area pretty well in the middle of a triangle of Leeds, Cas and Wakefield.

Its pretty contemptuous of RL supporters to say they should not be allowed a choice of which club to support! And that clubs should not be allowed to make people aware of what they offer? Should e.g. Leeds have been banned from having buses carry the (pretty powerful) champions advertising? Buses that doubless travel through the hinterlands of other RL clubs? of course not!

Precisely - cross the Aire and Calder Navigation and you're in Leeds; head 5 or so miles to the East and you're in North Yorkshire; 12 or so miles to south and you're in South Yorkshire.

I think I'll agree to disagree.



I quite agree that " protected territory" just seems wrong, but what I find distasteful is when the efforts of small clubs are pirated by larger clubs.

ie Small club expends time effort and money in getting into schools teaching and converting kids to RL. Large club rapes the small clubs methods, ideas and efforts then has the cheek to call them their own.

I think Mr Caisley called Keighley's Cougarmania a "disgrace to rugby league" or some such words, but very quickly launched Bullmania as if they had invented it.

Can't do much about it, but it does leave a nasty taste behind.

Fair enough. Why?





Why language such as "pirated" and "raped" ?
Are you saying Bradford should keep out of the territory entirely?

Where we tend to go wrong in these subjects is in thinking that the only competitors RL clubs have for fans is other RL clubs. In reality there are an infinite number of other competitors for the time and money of fans. I can guarantee none of those will believe they should stay out of the territory of any sports club, regardless of the sport and regardless of the level they play at.

Irrefutable argument, as I acknowledged in the previous post. Very embarrassing given that geography is supposed to be easily my "specialist subject"!

good business, fish where the fish are. they aren't trying to poach another SL clubs fans, if Batley fans want to watch SL then this is a great deal for them to do so.

what % of the population watch Batley or these other smaller clubs 1-2%? Thats a lot of people not watching RL that may decide to do, how can that be a bad thing?

The Bulls have been at this for years, they used to have pay for a bus with huge adverts for the Bulls on them in Huddersfield and have hoardings all through Batley and Dewsbury.

I remember one day driving through Batley on a sunday aft, Batley were at home but all the RL shirts I saw were people in Bulls shirts going towards Odslum.

then again I remember being in a pub in huddersfield the night of a Grand Final, the train emptied out and the pub on the station filled with people in Leeds shirts - literally scores of them and all from Huddersfield but supporting Leeds

So its frustrating when attendances are used to attack clubs (and not just my own) by people who havent got a clue of the realities of where the support for the top clubs comes from.

See below (did you forget what you wrote

)



If you want a continued debate, I will, but we are going OT.





Hmmm... lets see.... Caisley ridiculed Cougarmania in the press, apparently did all he could to keep us out of SL, then took our ideas as his own ...... yes pirated and raped seems fair to me.

Interesting article:
[urlhttp://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/rugby-league/super-league-in-debt-to-cougars-crazy-originality-482786.html[/url

Another interesting article: Read from Mr. Gary Waller down
[urlhttp://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199495/cmhansrd/1995-04-26/Debate-3.html[/url

It should also be noted i know quite a few Dons fans who go watch Cas/Leeds/Bradford when the Dons aren't at home on the same day.

Ironic that they were called the "Cougars" as they nicked all their ideas from the "Leeds Cougars" american football team. Who nicked their ideas from the NFL, which nicked it's ideas from college football.
Can you guess where the Leeds Cougars played their fixtures in the 80s?

Its untrue that the Cougars nicked their name from anyone - it was all down to a vote by fans. It is true, however that there are numerous other teams with the Cougar name and I'm sure that a search on Tigers, Warriors, Vikings, Wildcats etc etc etc would bring up similar numerous hits.

There was an interesting "gotcha" on the Keighley directors by, I think, local news Look North. They set up a meeting with a supposed rich arab who wanted to invest millions, on condition that the club name changed to Keighley Carmells (pronounced Camels

). I remember seeing the interview and the expression on their faces was priceless. They still tried to persuade him to part with the cash though. (and unlike Caisley they did't try to sue for misrepresentation they laughed instead

)

It is true that Keighley looked to American football and other successful sports for new ideas - why wouldn't they???

I didn't say they nicked their name.

You said Keighley nicked their ideas - one of Keighleys ideas was to create a catchy name and remarket themselves. I was saying they did not nick it from Leeds Cougars, whoever they are... is that ok with you



What other ideas did they nick ... can you provide a link???

Teams have been giving themselves nicknames for years. "Rovers" "United" "City" even Saracens and Harlequins.

If Keighley didn't nick their ideas, are you suggesting that they came up with the idea of a nickname, marketing and cheerleaders all independently?

Just because someone else did something before, does not mean that everyone else "nicked" their idea and "shafted" and "raped" or "pirated" them. They were no more Keighley's ideas than they were the ideas of the Leeds Cougars or the Bradford Bulls.

It's funny and pathetic in equal measure to read the odd Keighley fan still carrying around a sequoia-sized chip about some mythical wrongs done to his team by them nasty big-city neighbours.

"Cougarmania"? "Invented"? FFS what bullcrap (pun intended). 1. There are no Cougars in Keighley. 2. The Americans clearly invented match razamatazz long ago and the Cougars (to their credit) took the general idea and ran with it. But for them to then claim some form of patent on it, or even whinge that other clubs went on to do broadly similar razzamatazz stuff, is just pathetic! I'm not knocking Keighley's efforts at the time - on the contrary - but even in those days, their effort, on a scale of 1-10, would have rated about 0.25 when compared with even your average American college football team. The idea that a little minnow of a club from an obscure little town "invented" any of this is truly laughable.

About as laughable as the notion that some innocent, who currently pays to watch Keighley and somehow has seemingly no idea of the existence of the big, bad Bulls, or else inexplicably never yet figured out that he could go there if he wanted, would suddenly be forever torn from supporting the Cougars by the sight of a passing bus.

How are the ST sales going for the Bulls-are likely to make 10000?

Rugby League and Free Market Economy. In the same sentence.

You really are having a laugh.

Wow! Have they really.



I don't know what [itheir[/i ideas were, can you provide a link then we can debate it?



Can you honestly say that Bradford Bulls have gone down the Bullmania route without Keighley having first done cougarmania?? Would RL have revitalised itself like it did??

I am not suggesting Keighley invented anything, their directors openly admitted they looked at a whole host of other sports for ideas. What keighley did, and did it brilliantly, was to bring something new to RL at a time when RL was at a dead end.

I can remember the top SL clubs coming to Keighley - they all commented how wonderful and refreshing this approach was - except Bradford, who said we were a disgrace. Don't think I need to say any more



I have no issue with other teams copying what Keighley did. It's inevitable that if you have a good idea it will be replicated.

I think my previous attachments say it all.

Quote ="Dreamer"Wow! Have they really.'" Yes. Keighley weren't the first! Quote ="Dreamer"I don't know what [itheir[/i ideas were, can you provide a link then we can debate it?'" www.google.com Quote ="Dreamer"Can you honestly say that Bradford Bulls have gone down the Bullmania route without Keighley having first done cougarmania?? Would RL have revitalised itself like it did??'" Yes. Have a look at where the Leeds Cougars played in the 1980s. IIRC, I suggested you do that several posts ago. Quote ="Dreamer"I am not suggesting Keighley invented anything, their directors openly admitted they looked at a whole host of other sports for ideas. What keighley did, and did it brilliantly, was to bring something new to RL at a time when RL was at a dead end. I can remember the top SL clubs coming to Keighley - they all commented how wonderful and refreshing this approach was - except Bradford, who said we were a disgrace. Don't think I need to say any more '" I have no interest in what an idiot of a Bradford chairman thought. If only it had been brilliant enough to get regular five figure crowds. How different could things have been then? Quote ="Dreamer"I have no issue with other teams copying what Keighley did. It's inevitable that if you have a good idea it will be replicated. I think my previous attachments say it all.'" Nobody copied Keighley. They're copying The Cleveland Indians, or whoever came up with such an approach a hundred years ago. If you don't have an issue, why are do you claim a team that copied (you claim) the ideas that Keighley copied from someone else to be pirating and raping those ideas? Those are quite emotive words for something you don't have an issue with.

Quote ="Dreamer"Wow! Have they really.'" Yes. Keighley weren't the first! Quote ="Dreamer"I don't know what [itheir[/i ideas were, can you provide a link then we can debate it?'" www.google.com Quote ="Dreamer"Can you honestly say that Bradford Bulls have gone down the Bullmania route without Keighley having first done cougarmania?? Would RL have revitalised itself like it did??'" Yes. Have a look at where the Leeds Cougars played in the 1980s. IIRC, I suggested you do that several posts ago. Quote ="Dreamer"I am not suggesting Keighley invented anything, their directors openly admitted they looked at a whole host of other sports for ideas. What keighley did, and did it brilliantly, was to bring something new to RL at a time when RL was at a dead end. I can remember the top SL clubs coming to Keighley - they all commented how wonderful and refreshing this approach was - except Bradford, who said we were a disgrace. Don't think I need to say any more '" I have no interest in what an idiot of a Bradford chairman thought. If only it had been brilliant enough to get regular five figure crowds. How different could things have been then? Quote ="Dreamer"I have no issue with other teams copying what Keighley did. It's inevitable that if you have a good idea it will be replicated. I think my previous attachments say it all.'" Nobody copied Keighley. They're copying The Cleveland Indians, or whoever came up with such an approach a hundred years ago. If you don't have an issue, why are do you claim a team that copied (you claim) the ideas that Keighley copied from someone else to be pirating and raping those ideas? Those are quite emotive words for something you don't have an issue with.