they had RL clubs in london in the 30s i think.

heck wales had NU clubs in 1907 so they must be heartland too

None of those clubs don't have a consistent playing record until the present though.

Les Catalans is a new club so they dont have a continuous playing record either

hth

and RL was also banned from being played during the war as well.

a club formed by Ste Esteve XIII and UTC – they trace their history back.

Ignoring that is like saying Manly Sea Eagles are a new club because they merged with Norths to set up a new club and then dumped Norths to got it alone as a new club again – ie, nonsense.

a merger is a new club

So Huddersfield,Manly and Hull aren't heartlands either?????????





















weird

yeah when you show up to the KC you see loads of gateshead fan, or the busloads of sheffield fans at the galpharm

when wests and balmain merged to formed the wests tigers, its a new club. the club doesnt include the past history

hth

So the Western Suburbs and Balmain aren't RL heartlands either?




















weird

thats a pretty funny argument coming from you.

anyone that argues that

1. Les Cats are a heartland club
2. their entry into SL was guaranteed to be a success because of 1.

is either an idiot or a liar.

the same people now say toulose wont be a success

on the dumb argument above heck toulose should also be counted as a heartland team and therefore success should be instantaneuos

there are more holes in this argument than swiss cheese

These three clubs are still going. Paris aren't. Or do you consider no RL outside of your cosy SL? These three clubs are more steadfast than your fly-by-night pie in the sky clubs like Paris who won't even consider cutting their teeth in "the lower" leagues.

Alternatively, anyone who argues that the Dragons do not come from a rugby league heartland is

a) stupid
b) ignorant
c) a liar
e) any combination of the above.

It's a hearland club. The south of France has played RL for years. It's a heartland club.

Is that because it doesn't fit into your argument so you just dismiss it? You and Smokey are perfect bedfellows.

they are only still going through the kindness of their owners/chairmen who either paid of massive debts or re-formed them as new clubs not through any intrinsic part of these clubs meaning they are a better proposition


and im not here defending the previous Paris, it was a poorly executed poor idea, 15 years later, it doesnt have to be the same

I said it was no more expansion than Barrow or Widnes in SL would be, doesn't mean I disagree with their inclusion, but based on your arguments on here that Paris and Toulouse are better than Widnes due to their larger population (and nothing else) then you should have to support Perth over Central Coast without being a hypocrite

the did, they played at a barely semi-pro level in front a few hundred fans, by that reckoning, they Skolars are in a heartland


and im sure when Toulouse become a success that will also have always been a heartland, and in five years when the crusaders have turned it round Wales will have always been a heartland too

I'm prepared to just about accept Toulouse as a heartland club but Leigh are a heartland club and both of them are currently equally undeserving of a Super League franchise. Them being a heartland club doesn't mean they should be gifted a franchise anymore than Leigh should.

I was always very supportive of Catalans for Super League in 2006 (rather than trying to lie I suggest you go back to posts from them and see what I wrote and you will find I have been 100% consistent in this from start to finish). I hope to see Toulouse in Super League one day, but only when they merit a spot, not as a charity as you want

They had nearer 1500 and only due to the low standard and the fact that there were 4 semi-pro Perpignan teams (til 3 merged into one who were not long after ready for SL and then there were still 2 and on big occasions both could get 5000 watch). Add the figures of the 4 clubs together and you get clear heartlands (in the way that most Championship clubs are considered heartlands)


Toulouse is borderline heartlands/not heartlands (like Sheffield) and could become more of a heartlands, but only with success. Crusaders won't be a success, it is a certainty. However, places can gradually become heartlands, no team has ever gone from completely non-heartlands to a successful SL team instantly (there had been pro RL in London 16 years before SL and then they still haven't got good crowds since, even with initial success) and none ever will.

To try to compare Paris and Catalans is pure dishonesty and lies

I'm not a flatcapper, you are because you want to see expansion clubs fold by being pushed in too fast. I do things to expand the game at grassroots (though admittedly much less than some of the better people on here), what do you do for expansion beyond suggesting stupid ideas? I have consistently supported Catalans as a heartland club moving up a league


UTC won the French league by a landslide the year before they joined Super League and changed name (a name change doesn't magically make one club stop existing and the other magically appear from thin air, Crusaders aren't a brand new club from thin air for 2010 and they are having far more radical a change from top to bottom than UTC did when they became Catalans Dragons) and had shown consistent success for years before then


UTC had shown consistent success in the only league they could, whereas Toulouse have finished 10th in the Championship and 7th in the French Elite the last two years. Hardly comparable. The crowds is a general guide, but the differences from Catalans is three fold: 1. The Championship has higher crowds than the French Elite so a slightly higher target is ideal; 2. UTC and Pia's combined crowds were at least that 2500 and they are both Perpigan clubs, Toulouse don't have competition at the same level; 3. Catalans had the pick of all of the best French players, Toulouse don't, so they have a harder target and thus need to be even more ready. By 2015 the many extra players (especially juniors) that started with the interest in Catalans will be starting to come through to adults and thus Toulouse will have a much better chance of having a good team. When this brings in more juniors then there may be the possibility of a third French heartland team in SL (Aude or Vaucluse), but Paris would still be impossible


Crusaders have had a year far worse than Gateshead had their first year on almost every measurement and if they were a heartland club you'd be calling them a waste of space. If a club folds after one year, then it is fair to judge them on one year, likewise if they do everything wrong but fold it is fair to judge them on that year. I am not judging Paris solely on the basis of a failure 12 years ago (you lie again by saying 15), it's the consistent failure of Paris at even the French Elite level. Toulouse I am applying (roughly) the same standard people apply to other Championship clubs and the crowds that translate into acceptable ones in SL, plus the playing standards that every other club has to accept, not arbitrary at all. If Crusaders are useless from 2nd in NL1, there is no prospect whatsoever of Toulouse being anything but a failure from 10th in the Championship. Also I said those conditions are the ones I'd support their inclusion on, thus I can set it at what I want, you might set criteria of 'they're not English' as grounds for supporting them, I'm not prepared to set such irrelevent, arbitrary and racist standards

It is only relevant if the situations are the same. I'm prepared to use Oldham's failure against their being ever suitable for SL, but the differences between the temporary setbacks of RL in Widnes and Bradford are not even remotely comparable to the absolute failures (not just one) of Paris. Flatcapper is not an argument, it is a word thrown around when you know you've lost the argument and have no rational opposition


If you think Wigan and Leeds have ever failed (dropping out of the top flight isn't failing and Leeds haven't done that for a very very long time) then you are a troll and should probably be banned. I'm going to assume you had a different meaning here so please explain it


Well they're not remotely the same as Paris failing and neither of them disappeared for 12 years then wanted gifting with a Super League franchise. If Prescot or Carlisle want a Super League franchise I'd view it the same way I view Paris wanting one, even though they're in Lancashire and Cumbria. By trying to equate vastly different situations you are the one giving different standards

so 4 clubs in an area twice the size of yorkshire, with twice the population who combined got lower attendences than Wakefield constitutes a heartland these days?



really, where is this objective criteria we have for deciding 'heartlands' what to Toulouse need to do to make that crossover from borderline to heartlands? has anyone told them? has anyone written down this criteria before or does it just exist inside your own head?



you are a liar, these a slanderous and malicious false accusations, please provide evidence for it!

im also waiting for an apology for your little dummy spit earlier on regarding widnes,

no team has made the step up from amateur to semi-pro to fully pro for about 80 years, no-one, not one has come through the pyramid, not one has been built slowly, not one has been succesful in following your model, i would see that as evidence it doesnt work


this sentence is just complete idiocy,

really, go read about the history of UTC and Les Catalans, you will see why this is just silly, especially the point about them winning the french league by a landslide, there was a pretty obvious reason why this happened,

UTC only existed for a couple of years prior to Les Catalan, before that they had the much more radical change of actually merging two clubs to form UTC,


they were a few years old FFS, they hadnt got consistant anything, X111 Catalan hadnt won the elite since 94 and St Esteve 98, UTC won it because they had all the best french players signed up in 2005 ready for SL in 2006,

I wonder who UTC beat in 2005 to win the French Elite?

really? between 2000 and 2006 (the year Les Catalans entered SL) St Esteve, UTC, and X111 Catalans featured in 4 grand finals combined, Toulouse also featured in 4, Toulouse also reached the semi-finals of the Challenge cup

so your argument seems to be, in the last three years Toulouse havent been as successful as the UTC side who were allowed to sign all the best french players and were guaranteed an SL side in the three years before les catalans joined SL

nonsense, Pia and UTC werent walking around with 2.5k averages 7 years ago (i.e before les catalans were given an SL place)

Toulouse arent going to produce a team of SL players outside SL and Les Catalans arent going to produce two,

If they were a heartland club they would be in that position after over 100 years of building, not 5 years.

I am well aware that the crusaders will take time, anybody who thought they wouldnt, or judges them after one year is an idiot



no, its still pretty idiotic, they have had a bad year, not the worst we have ever seen, but pretty poor, but that doesnt mean they cant and wont improve next year, and the year after, and the year after that,
there have been some good signs, and they are still here, and will still be competing next year,

they were given three years, lets see where they are then

a semipro comp with little exposure and based in the south of france is a different beast to a fully pro european elite competition,

aaahh, so you are pretending that a french expansion club is the same as british heartland club, explains a lot

maybe, just maybe, the side Toulouse put out in the championship is different to what they would put out in SL,



racist? youre a joke

go complain to your local BNP guy about poor little england being pushed out of the game booo-ing-hooo poor little you

if this is the racism you are encountering you are a very very lucky person

oh and thankfully, no one cares if you support their inclusion anyway, they will come in, they will be welcomed, and you will be ignored, and the game will be much better for it

So why are you actively wanting to drop a club into the top from nothing then when that has also never worked?

because it does work, and has worked when done properly,

there isnt something intrinsic in certain geographical areas that makes it RL country, when the game doesnt spread its because we dont do a good job spreading it,

it will take hardwork and time, but with the right backing and preperation any club, anywhere can be successful

making Paris play in front of a few hundred for three years wont affect that, they would be better using that time to concentrate on preparing their off-the field coaching, training, scouting, youth development, marketing structures ready for an assault SL than spending three years making a token gesture to the flatcappers

i would rather the RFL said to a Paris side, you are in 2012/2015 start preparing everything for SL now than making them go through the charade of three years in the championship