Current RL events and their current (roughly estimated) attendance averages:

World Club Challenge - 20-30k
Magic Weekend - 30k per day x2
England vs Exiles - 14k (now x2)
Northern Rail Final - 8-10k
Challenge Cup Semi-Finals - 12-20k x2
Challenge Cup Final - 75-85k
Championship Finals - 8-12k
Grand Final - 70-75k
England vs Australia - 25-45k
England vs New Zealand 20-25k
England vs anyone else - 10-15k



Grand Final and Challenge Cup Final are too big. England internationals could potentially grow if marketed right. Challenge Cup semis would need to be a double header (which many have been calling for for years). Northern Rail Final and Championship Finals too small, so would need changing.

If you reduced the Super League season by 4 games (reducing back to 12 teams), you could have an expanded WCC to an 8-team 2-group format (3 games + final), which would increase the profile of the WCC. A double-header group game featuring all the NRL sides could prove a popular event also to kick it off, which would be an extra game at the ground.
If you merged the remaining SL sides in with the top 8 from the Championship, you've got the makings of a revamped Northern Rail Cup, which would have group games of SL teams playing Championship teams (much needed added income for Championship sides), a bit of "cup magic" and another final later in the season (possibly May bank holiday, where the old Challenge Cup Final was). All fits in with the current schedule.

A return to P&R, some bigger clubs in the Championship due to a reduced SL could see bigger crowds at the Championship finals. 20k saw Widnes vs Castleford at a more central location with a bigger prize. I think the 4 before that also sold out (or where very close to). A bigger ground with more prestige and better marketing in a more suitable location could see much bigger crowds.

Other events could include the return of the Charity Shield. Yorkshire/Lancashire (played by players not selected by England as a trial game). More England internationals. I think with the right structure of the season, you could easily get to 10+ event games that could get 30-40k if allowed to build. Those events and the money from them would be a huge boost for RL's profile and its coffers. At present, we've got the GF, the CCF, England vs Aus and the 4N Final that would probably get anywhere near decent coverage.

How so? You can't have a stadium if there are no events at it. You either need to revamp your old events or make new ones.

If you want to grow your business (and sport is business), you need to add more products that people want. If we don't do that, we aren't going to move anywhere.


Can it be sorted? And how? That is the issue. If there was one venue that fitted the bill, I guarantee you we'd already be there. But there isn't. The major finals are where they are because we don't have anywhere else to put them that would "fit". Wembley is the biggest and most prestigious stadium in the country (and probably in the top 5 of the world). Nowhere else could fit the Challenge Cup's prestige and history quite like it. Old Trafford is the biggest stadium in the north, most suited to an evening game that only has its pundits one week to organise their trip there, and is only available for a few games per year. Both will probably cost a lot for one-off hires. If somewhere like Old Trafford was available for more international games at a good price, I reckon we'd use it a lot more than we do.


The size of the stadium isn't always the most important part. The location of the stadium. The history (if there is any, sometimes it's good to start fresh). The facilities, etc. will have more of an impact on how many turn up. If you play the "wait until we fill this up before we move on" game, you won't know if any of the other factors have an effect on why it hasn't filled up.

I'll give you an example:
2009 4N group game - England vs Australia @ DW Stadium, Wigan. Attendance = 23k (2k empty)
2011 4N group game - England vs Australia @ Wembley, London. Attendance = 42k

Why didn't Wigan sell out 25k if Wembley can attract nearly double that? Was it because of access? Was it because Wigan as a town doesn't have that "big event feel"? Was it because some people don't like that it's Wigan due to the RL club (there will be a few, I know there's KR fans that won't come to the KC), whereas Wembley is neutral? Was it because of the prestige that Wembley holds? I'd hazard a guess that they all contributed, and will all continue to contribute at any other ground we play at whether that be Galpharm, KC, Headingley, Odsal (latter two bring in spectator comfort as well).
What 25k ground would fit that bill, as well as being in an area where there are enough RL fans in the vicinity to not wholly rely on neutrals travelling from far and wide to fill it up (something I feel Galpharm has always struggled with)?

At the moment, there isn't any. You'd have to build one. If there were more RL fans in and around Sheffield, Bramall Lane would be a perfect place as a neutral venue, central to the country, not too huge, in a big city and no historic ties to a big RL clubs (no disrespect Eagles). But you need them neutrals to pad out the place for events that don't fill.

It isn't even England's second city FFS.

6th biggest city in England, behind Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford.

Notice ROBINSON's use of 'arguably'. It wouldn't be particularly difficult to argue that Manchester is higher in the England city pecking order than Sheffield or Bradford in particular.

In terms of sporting facilities, would Manchester need another large stadium?

Nowhere 'needs' a large stadium. For what its worth I think this idea is about as sensible as some of my clubs supporters plans of a magical London Broncos stadium built by elves on the mythical free land in London paid for by all the RFL handouts that we receive.

Rugby League needs to walk before it can run and at the moment its barely crawling. I'm all for ambition but the domestic game needs to improve before anything as right now it isn't sustainable and a random new stadium won't help.

Whilst I don't agree with RL "barely crawling" (we're not doing as bad as the pessimists who "support" the game think we are), you've pretty much said what I've said in terms of needing to get things right before it could even be considered. A stadium could be a catalyst to even greater things, but we'd need to be in a much better place first.

I have to disagree about the "nowhere needs a large stadium" comment. There's probably a few places that could do with one. Leeds definitely could.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

Odsal is in BRADFORD for a start. It's nowhere near prestigious enough and will only consolidate our Northern flat cap image. Bradford NORTHERN, remember?

Plus, Odsal is a hole in the ground. It can't be realistically redeveloped.

Please, leave the Odsal suggestions there now. It's getting embarrassing. Seriously.

Course it is. It's more important culturally, financially and stragecially than Birmingham, which was often marketed as Britain's second city in the 80s. It is also the centre of the largest British conurbation outside of Greater London.

In any case, we're talking RL here, and your major cities as far as RL is concerned are Leeds and Manchester. Its a no-brainer.

Correct.

Which city has more prestige? Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds or Bradford?

Leeds is the 2nd largest financial centre in the UK behind London. This is a fact, it would be pretty ignorant to suggest Manchester is more important in a financial sense.
Your not the PR Manager for the Manchester Tourist Board by any chance?

So it's more important because a few bands have come from there?

And how is Manchester an important RL city exactly? Just because it happens to have big football stadium that is convenient for RL to use?

Utter nonsense.

A bit like the Noup Camp????

If you say that, then so is the Etihad. Didn't they dig down to increase capacity after the commonwealth games?

Camp Nou and Etihad were 'from scratch' projects. Odsal was a quarry.

You could do a lot with odsal, its massive

No you couldn't.

Odsal is almost impossible to develop in a way that would make it a modern stadium - certainly no Wembley of the north. The Nou Camp and Etihad were never just a big hole in the ground with terracing built on the banking.

To start with it would either need to be filled in or dug out at an astronomical cost. Only then could you plan a Stadium on the site. This idea that you can bang a few roofs up and hey presto simply isn't the case.

To upgrade Odsal to "modern" Stadium standard simply isn't economically viable in any sense of the word. You'd be better finding a new site and building again at possibly a third of the cost.

The best you could do is improve it for the speccies - new roof on opposite side to main stand and behind the sticks - better bogs, bars etc.

Problem is no one will stump up for this because it doesn't offer enough increased revenue to cover the cost.

Ever wondered why Odsals capacity is so low relative to it's size? Because it's infrastructure is so hopelessly out of date or inadequate to handle any more people.

HTH

It is? Have you got some sources to back that up?

Not that this is my area of strength, but a quick look online (OK, I'm using Wikipedia as I can't be bothered to look anywhere else yet) shows that Birmingham ranks higher than Manchester in terms of GDP, it has a bigger population, and the urban area it is the centre of (West Midlands Urban Area) is larger than the Greater Manchester Urban Area.

How have you measured culture?


You're right, it is a no brainer. Manchester isn't a rugby league city. Leeds is. It's in the centre of the biggest population of RL fans in the country. In fact, it is central to the country full stop. It would also benefit more and probably receive greater demand for external users of the stadium than Manchester and the North West would (Manchester having two stadia already bigger than 40k, and the NW having four, whereas Yorkshire has zero).

It would make far more sense for a hypothetical national RL stadium to be in Leeds than Manchester. Only opinion of course.

See you continue to demonstrate what a prize idiot you are?

Odsal's capacity is actually restricted because around 40% of the periphery of the pitch has no stands or terracing, other than the Coral Stand which has seats for around 700. If it has a capacity of 26k as it stands, then you would be looking at around 43k if all the sides were fully built round in similar fashion to what is there now.

You really are a class sad sack and some.

IMHO Odsal as it stands could hold more with better access etc etc, however it's not needed so why bother. Also that wasn't really the point was it, still ifyou think Odsal infrastructure is up to speed then best of luck.

Despite your pathetic show of petulance I see nothing wrong with Odsal, as a RL stadium get it?

It could and should be upgraded, especially the cover, get it.

However despite the above being a vast improvement for your average RL fan - it still puts Odsal a million miles away from being a world class stadium - which is what it was being suggested it could be turned into.

Despite your almost child like belief in all things Bulls, Odsal cannot be upgraded to modern stadium standards in any kind of financially viable way. You could build a Stadium on Mount Everest if you wanted, the technology exists - the finances to do it DON'T!

I can tell you right now Adey, I know stadium development - you can chose not to believe me but I do. The real cost to turn Odsal into even a relatively modest KC sized stadium would cost 4 x what the KC cost (not including inflation). This is almost all down to the cost of getting the site ready to build on. The only kind of stadia they build now are modular steel framed and part assembled - to build one of those at Odsal would require it being filled in and leveled. You go there, just try and imagine how epic a task that would be!

Odsals problem is it's to big, it's construction to unique and thus too expensive for a facelift - but not important or iconic enough for a full redevelopment using public/private money, the kind of money required for such large scale developments.

It will never happen - the RL know this, they own it for it's land value and nothing more.

Now either join in the debate or bog off.

I did join in the debate.

You made a stupid, incorrect statement. I refuted it. I just commented on your statement as it stood. That was all there was to it. The scope for development is a separate issue, much if not most of which I would agree with you on. But that was not what you stated, was it?

But Leeds is in Yorkshire. If you want to promote the flat cap image, and hold our sport back, then go ahead, stick it there.

Yes it was what stated and it wasn't incorrect IMO - I confirmed what I said the first time - read the post again and stop being a pedant.

So everything in Yorkshire is linked with flat caps is it?

Why should we as a sport be embarrassed about our heritage? Why should it hold us back? How many people would not like RL or not visit the stadium because it was in Yorkshire?

I'm more concerned about what area would get the best crowds and what area would have the most use of a stadium (as just RL wouldn't make a stadium viable). Manchester would be behind Leeds in both of these areas.

Chomp. Just tell our Pie friend to shove his rosettes where the sun doesn't shine