Are those calling for some sort of criminal action, doing so on the basis that he has committed an offence which is outside of the guidelines of the sport?.... If so, it sets a dangerous precedent for ALL sports, not just RL.

Take boxing, a sport which, arguably, is based on controlled violence.... Any breach of that 'control', a punch below the belt, a punch after the bell, leading with the head, etc, could easily be construed as an assault similar to Flower's on Saturday night.

Flower's was a moment of madness, but it was a moment that happens occasionally in sport.... Personally, I wouldn't like any sportsman to be put in any court and judged by anybody, with no experience of what its like to have the adrenaline flowing in a high pressure sporting situation and that's what we risk exposing Flower to.

Anyone condoning this needs to have a think if this was your son playing and this happened to him what course of action would you take?.....would you be saying its a rugby incident.

I for one think it should be a season ban.

yes plenty of punches are thrown on game day but that was a blatant punch on someone not attempting to defend himself. These are trained athletes who should be able to control there aggression.

"Anyone condoning this"

It's like people manage to browse this forum with their eyes shut.

Prosecuting a player through the legal system isn't unheard of in RL. Ellery Hanley once took action against Andy Dannett after having his jaw broken by a punch in a Hull v Leeds fixture.

I'd have been very confident that Hohai too would have gone down the same route if he'd received any injuries which required an operation and lengthy recovery time.

Just a point on all this "Hohia had the first punch coming, he was the aggressor" business - can I assume that everyone saying that is absolutely certain that the first act of aggression wasn't what I thought I saw - namely Flower swinging his arm into the back of Hohia's head as he ran past? It's just if we're going to go defending any action shouldn't it really be the little guy who got slotted by a cowardly shot on the back of the head by a much bigger man and then, quite understandably, went after him?

I only ask because reading some of the nonsense on here you'd think that Hohia just decided out of nowhere to attack a prop for no reason and that made the first punch legit.

In short, Flower created the situation, he started it, he finished and there's no cojent reason for defending the first punch - which under current rules is as clear a red card as you're likely to see.

You've obviously forgotten that on here any call for proportionality, rationality, reasonable punishment, compassion, etc. automatically means you condone violence and that Ben Flower should be given a medal.

The police and CPS have said they prefer a sport's disciplinary body to deal with these sorts of incidents. Partly because of the inevitable grey areas, partly because disciplinary bodies can often impose tougher punishments than the courts.

The police and CPS see their role as monitoring the actions taken by disciplinary bodies to be satisfied that they are imposing sufficiently tough punishments. If they're satisfied they decide that its not in the public interest to prosecute.

Hence we have the situation where the police and CPS are having meetings with the RFL and St Helens. It appears that some sort of negotiating process is taking place to decide "what's the minimum ban that Flower should receive to avoid a prosecution?"

Thanks, that seems to be a fairly definitive answer.

You know what? I'm glad it was on national telly. First week in as long as I can remember that people in the office are talking about RL. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating of-the-ball violence as a way of promoting the sport, but it is a pleasant change that RL is the talking point, not some contrived 'scandal' in football because one player looked at another in a funny way.

Were have they said this?

Also, if that's the case, why did Duncan Ferguson get gaoled.

Cant remember where I read it, it was in connection with Louis Suarez second biting offense.

Yep, and the occasional striking incidents, including shocking incidents like that seen on Saturday are "expected" (in that they are in the sporting guidelines) but certainly not condoned. These guidelines are generally accepted by the authorities to be good enough at dealing with these matters as they comply with the tenants of English law. They are a governing body. I expect now the RFL have issued their 6 month ban that the police will drop any charges, especially as the victim has not complained, but of course we will see.

None of this suggests that the acts on the field are outside the law. Simply the way we choose to govern those laws. Any striking of another player is technically an assault, and what Flowers did was possibly even ABH, but the RFL should be the governing body to deal with it. Any suggestion that police should deal with these matters is frankly nonsense in my opinion and sets a dangerous and completely unnecessary precedent for contact sport. Boxing would be done for. Clearly where an incident went above striking to something far more serious, then it would fall over that line as to be inappropriate for a sporting governing body to deal with and to be handled as a police matter.

RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport. That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate. If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init... Utterly ridiculous. Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/ One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it!

RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport. That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate. If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init... Utterly ridiculous. Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/ One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it!

Quote ="knockersbumpMKII"RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport. That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate. If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init... Utterly ridiculous. Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/ One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it!'" It's full contact sport. Within the strict definition of the law every ruck is an assault. Players are going out on the pitch to crash into each other, with the best will in the world it is inevitable that aggression will sometimes spill over, that's why we have a disciplinary process in the first place. Far from 'a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time', Flower is now a marked man and every referee will be watching him for the slightest transgression, while every opponent will be trying to wind him up to get him to react. The disciplinary panel have punished him. If the police start getting involved the lawyers will follow and the sport (and every other contact sport) will be done for. You are watching a full contact sport where players are expected to crash into each other, and complaining that it's violent. Now [uthat[/u is utterly ridiculous.

Quote ="knockersbumpMKII"RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport. That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate. If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init... Utterly ridiculous. Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/ One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it!'" It's full contact sport. Within the strict definition of the law every ruck is an assault. Players are going out on the pitch to crash into each other, with the best will in the world it is inevitable that aggression will sometimes spill over, that's why we have a disciplinary process in the first place. Far from 'a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time', Flower is now a marked man and every referee will be watching him for the slightest transgression, while every opponent will be trying to wind him up to get him to react. The disciplinary panel have punished him. If the police start getting involved the lawyers will follow and the sport (and every other contact sport) will be done for. You are watching a full contact sport where players are expected to crash into each other, and complaining that it's violent. Now [uthat[/u is utterly ridiculous.

WRONG, you need to read what the law says & understand it not come to some fanciful conclusion because you've watched Rockford files on a Sunday afternoon..


As for the violence, where have I made ANY complaint about 'violence' within our sport, that being the acceptable kind, go on.. crack on mcduff!
i played, I liked to give it hard, I had no qualms about smashing a halfback or a winger but I was always fair/legitimate (that's my nature) I took it back and plenty of that that wasn't fair or legit..I expected that all the same. BUT..there IS a line and when that line is strode over by a mile as in the Flower case then things should be looked at closely as to wether criminal proceedings be followed. But yeah, people like you will just let this type of incident and future ones go with just a slap on the wrist by the RFL and not do anything else about it..
Whatever

Well that is the thing. In boxing there is the expectation that you will get punched. But there are many rules and responsibilities around being granted that freedom. One of which is that the referees decisions are followed and safety is paramount. As long as those type of responsibilities are taken then boxing would be fine.

But if a boxer were to ignore a ref's instruction or were to kneel down above and unconscious opponent, that would quite possibly be dealt with by the authorities.

I dont see why people assume that if action were taken in an exceptional circumstance like this, it would be taken in run of the mill circumstances. It wouldnt. The only precedent being set would be that if you were to commit an exceptionally violent act within a sporting contest, outside of the rules of that sport, and beyond what is reasonably expected within that sport, police action would be taken.

It is actually no different to the principle you confirm, it is simply that you draw the line of 'serious' (as you term it) further along than what Flower did.

Well done for being so patronising, I'm sorry, did I dare to disagree with you?
You commented about an assault being committed. In English law as assault is committed if force is used against a person, or the person has a realistic fear that force is about to be used. There is a defence of reasonableness, if the force used was part of normal social behaviour and widely considered not to be excessive. Sport will use this defence on the basis that someone who has signed up to play contact sport can expect physical contact. However, that defence is open to interpretation, and as wider society do not play the sport, does the tackle fall with accepted social norms of contact? I'm sure the lawyers would love to argue over that one, while charging their normal hourly rate.

Sorry I've no idea who McDuff is, and as I suspect this is more patronising stuff I won't bother googling it.

Yes there is. He crossed it, and has been punished.

No they shouldn't in this case, as it is simply not warranted and opens up a whole can of worms (yes, I'm disagreeing with you).

People like what? Please tell me all about myself, I'm fascinated to find out what I'm like.

He's just been handed the longest ban given out. Not exactly a slap on the wrist.

And more patronising stuff to finish. Do you realise that the thinly disguised swearing and emoticons just make you seem like another angry keyboard warrior?

But if you can reply in a measured manner, answer me this. If you're so keen to see Flower prosecuted, why are you not demanding the police and CPS look at the incident in it's entirety? If you want the criminal law applied on the pitch I would say Ben Flower can mount the defence of provocation from the initial assault by Lance Hohaia. An off-the-ball use of the forearm under the chin is also over the line. The lawyers can then argue over it to their hearts content. All the time with the meter running.

The RFL guidelines draw the line with the grading system.

the RFL are not a law making or law enforcement body. Had Hohaia complained, i have no doubt that police would not only be able to, but would be duty bound to progress it.

This wouldnt set a precedent. It would simply be a decision that what Flower did was bad enough.

They would have, yes. But he didn't so that is somewhat mute. If a player punched another player in any game and they complained to the police they would have to look at it. Its potentially common assault.

i dont believe they would. A punch is a well established part of the game (rightly or wrongly) and there is an expectation of its possibility. What Flower did is entirely different.

I'm not saying the complaint would get anywhere. They would take the nature of the sport, and its governing body into account and likely dismiss it.

A punch is a well established [itransgression[/i. That isn't the same as it being a part of the game. Either the police are duty bound to investigate a complaint where an assault has occurred or they are not. They could not, without any impropriety, investigate Flower without investigating Hohaia.

Just because you have set up a false dichotomy, doesnt make it true.

The police/cps would only be bound to move forward such a complaint if a reasonable person would not expect such an offence to happen during a game.

Who told you that, and why did you believe them? There are lots of scenarios where one might reasonably expect a crime to occur but it does not relieve the police or the CPS from their duties to follow it up. The assault Flower committed occurred in the context of he himself being assaulted, albeit to a lesser degree. There is no way any investigation could turn a blind eye to that.