I heard the very same prior to the 2005 Tri Nations Final, the 2008 World Cup Final and the 2010 Four Nations Final... the Aussies will have too much for the Kiwis in all those finals.

The Kiwis won them all.

Not really that much skills holding someone down is it. It was very scrappy. I do agree that in SOME games the refs have wanted it to be like tag rugby (the wire-hudds game springs to mind) It's about getting the balance right, we don't want a scoot fest, but mos fans don't want the wrestling tactics we saw yesterday

You can say what you want but I was getting text messages saying last night was boring especially in the first half. I'm undecided on the matter but I do not want to go to a position where we end up with players being gang-jumped a second after receiving the ball every tackle. There has to be a mix between the two. Our game should not be so open that it resembles basketball and the same time it shouldn't be so oppressive that it resembles rugby union.

There's far less skill in making scoots in wide open spaces via manufactured quick PTB's. I'd rather watch a tough physical arm-wrestle than that watered-down SL rubbish. I'm not interested in what most SL fans want either... they can stick to watching SL if that's what makes them happy.

I do agree that we need to find the right balance between attack and defence in order for it to be a fair contest though.

I thought todays game was a good balance. The ref was very good, very consistent. Didn't let you lay on, but it wasn't a scoot fest.

I'm guessing all those text messages you received were from fans of the scoot-scoot Super League style of play which is whoop-de-doo 'entertainment' all the way (of course it is - yawn), yes?

I mean Rob Burrow was a unanimous Harry Sunderland Trophy winner in the SL Grand Final the other week on the back of what skill exactly? That's right... a scoot-scoot performance after manufactured quick PTB's in manufactured wide open spaces



Agree with you that we need to get the balance right. The holding down tactics of both sides were allowed a bit too much latitude but at least it was good to see a physical arm wrestle for a change.

It all made for a pleasant change IMO. I'm bored of easy metres gained on the back of scoots from dummy half or first receiver. Attacking teams are rewarded enough with 10 metres of territory after being tackled. What more do they want? I enjoyed the arm wrestle, the slowing down and the physical nature. The players are skilful enough to manufacture their own territory and space instead of having it manufactured for them.

Aren't they?

Funnily enough no. It was from good old Despo who is a "It used to be better in the 5m days" character lol.



I don't disagree with that.



I think we all understand that but striking the balance is not as easy as it looks and it's never more in evidence than in the comparisons between Super League and the NRL. The truth lies right between the two. It is unlikely to ever be resolved because of the factitious nature of how our sport is governed across the world.

The despondent one changes his despondent views according to which way the wind happens to be blowing. He's an advocate of the 'entertaining' SL style on another day... particularly if it involves Saints on a flat-track bully, scoot-scoot mission against some lower ranked Super League tripe lol

People are concentrating on the speed of the ruck in the Australia Kiwi’s game but it was more than that. It took an age for every restart with players refusing to even arrive at the scrum – I lost count of the number of times the ref had to call players over to form a full scrum complement, he should have blown a few penalties

Both the games so far have lacked intensity compared to the top end matched we have seen this year (on both sides of the world) and that’s shocking considering they were international games. I can let the England Wales game go as there was only ever going to be one winner but I thought the Australia New Zealand game was poor considering they were supposed to be the elite of our game

The Australia/NZ game was scratchy yet still way ahead of the England/Wales game in terms of skill and intensity which isn't bad considering all the players bar one only arrived in the country last week after long flights. England will need to improve ten-fold next week just to match Australia's scratchy performance last night.

Agree with Keith in that there is far more skill in breaking down a set defensive line than the SL style quick PTB scoot rugby. Plus i think it is more entertaining watching a good half clinically break down a line with a pass than watching a hooker/half scooting and scoring off the back of a lightning quick PTB and a scattered defence.

Whilst you may feel there are truths in what you say, as a game it was still pretty average overall. Hardly like the match a couple of years back at The Stoop.

Different context two years ago. The Kiwis hadn't been hammered in Australia's back yard less than 2 weeks prior to the 4N game in the UK like they were this year. They are also missing a lot more key players this year through injury. Confidence isn't as high and they needed to set down a marker for later on in the tournament. I think they achieved that and if they make the 4N Final, they are are good chance of beating Australia again. I don't agree that last night's game was that inferior in quality to the one at the Stoop two years ago anyhow as I don't judge quality on the availability of manufactured quick PTB's and scoots from dummy half to suit particular tastes in entertainment

Well that’s hardly a surprise is it – who expected anything different?

Simply put, the England Wales game was pretty much as everybody expected while the Australia New Zealand was well down on the standard that these two nations have served up in the past

If it was down to both expecting their proper contest being in the final so they lacked focus then I hope more than ever that England turns one of them over and makes the final

However, I actually suspect that the real reason is it was a poor international game is that there were a few world class players on show and a whole load more who wouldn’t have got near a Kangaroo or Kiwi jersey in previous seasons

You sound like a MMA apologist there bud





I have yet to find a person who does.

5 metres instead of 10 might be the answer? I think you have to give quick PTB's to good attacking plays as a reward, I guess how you then use that - scoot from dummy half or move the ball through hands - is what makes the game a spectacle.

I've always preferred 5 metres because 10 metres favours the attacking side way too much and disadvantages good defence. I've yet to hear a legitimate argument for a player being tackled and dumped to the ground only for him and his team to be rewarded with a quick PTB and 10 metres of available territory. It speeds up the game and makes it more 'entertaining' is not a legitimate argument... that's just the opinion of those who are obsessed with open play in broken field situations. But it's manufactured open play in broken field situations devoid of the skill and craft in breaking down defences and that's what I can't stomach.

My preference is for quick PTB's to be earned a lot more than they are. If we're sticking with 10 metres, perhaps another option is where the dominant tackle rule needs to be refereed and enforced more effectively, allowing defences the opportunity to slow play down because they've actually earned that right?

We can't go back to 5m please. It would be like playing Union. When I watched that final the other day it was just awful. As soon as a player got the ball he was tackled. Of course Union isn't helped by the fact that they can hardly string two passes together anyway but the reasoning still stands.

Yes to having to work for the breaks but no to stifling creativity via a game structure which lends itself to a game where it's too easy for a destructive side to be more effective than their efforts deserve.

Your reasoning is flawed and your analogy sucks. The game would be nothing like Union if we returned to the 5m rule. We don't employ a plethora of unfathomable rules on fatboy or stick insect contests for mud-stained possession like in Union.

I'm all for stifling creativity if all it ever amounts to is scooting in 10 metres of uncontested wide open space. That ain't creativity... it's a licence to gain easy territory which is undeserved and unearned... and that's why we haven't produced a decent class half back in this country for the best part of a couple of decades because we haven't needed to on the domestic front.

I believe you are hamstrung by Super League ideology and have been listening way too much to those buffoons flogging their substandard, watered-down product week in week out on Sky.

Maybe occasionaly passing the ball to the left would open the game up a bit?

My reasoning is flawed? Have you seen 5m games recently? Even during a non-professional a half-decent defence could be quite stifling. What do you think that's going to look like with professionally-drilled and trained athletes doing it? You can suggest that the PTB should be looked at (which is probably where the solution lies and we all know it but can't seem to decide where it is), but a 5m line is just barmy. You tell me where you've dug your reasoning up from for your own suggestion?



You seem to be under the impression that the only creativity I value is quick PTBs. Seeing as I have never suggested that you are trying to discredit my discussion by introducing a point of argument about it that I've never stated.



Yes I've seen your arguments sir and it appears than whenever somebody disagrees with a point of your argument they are suddenly a Super League Nazi. What purpose does it serve to the discussion to suggestion it is some sort of ideologically driven belief, as if we're all sponsored by SKY? If you can have an interest in improving the quality of the game without it being tied to some sort of crazy Super League conspiracy can't I? Even if I believe that professionalism has benefited this game immensely how does that somehow mean that any comment I make is based on an ideological belief rather than [iwhat I actually see with my own eyes[/i?

Nice try. But no bellend in their right mind will have enjoyed the stop start, slow, scrappy affair on offer, and if they honestly did I suggest they take up watching rugby union, it'd be right up their alley.

We shouldn't have the defence retreating back at all. They should just stay level with where the tackle occured. The players should be skilful enough to manufacture their own territory and space instead of having it manufactured for them.

[url=http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/11/01/rugby-league-slower-ball-does-not-automatically-ruin-the-spectacle/Slower ball does not automatically ruin the spectacle[/url.

I agree. I was at the game on Friday night and I still thought it was a good encounter.

I think we should have 3rd competetion to replace the repeat fixtures which uses 5m. Two subs (3 interchanges).
I think it would help round our players skills.