NSW showed how you have to defend against Thurston and co - strong inside defence to pressure them and not just standing back and watching them throw the ball around. Far too often GB/England seem to stand back and admire the Aussie playmakers, then seem stunned when they setup lovely looking tries.

I pointed out the lack of quality in the back row last year and was told I was talking cr*p. I think its a really big problem for England, especially with Sam Burgess gone.

Another weakness is having to rotate Roby. That means England have to have a hooker on the bench (or even worse move the halfbacks around), rather than another big forward.

Hardaker/Tomkins is one of the most interesting selection dilemmas, as is 6 and 7 - I'd assume Widdopp has to be there, but also Sinfield if he's fit and selected as well. Given that Tomkins is a must, Hardaker would probably miss out, be picked in the centres or (possibly) on the bench. Given that Hardaker can cover 1-5 that may not be the worst move if we can avoid a hooker on the bench.

If there is a problem with rotating Roby, simple, just play Clark for 80 minutes.

It's a great issue for England to have trying to fit both Clark and Roby in. I expect Clark's form will bring the best out of Roby at the end of the year because if it doesn't he's in danger of losing his position.

On form Clark should be the first name on the team sheet.

It's funny how no one seems to think that roby's form is anything to shout about. He's so hugely important to the saints team - he was taken off for 20 minutes against Bradford and we conceded 4 times! He's topping 50 tackles a game with alarming regularity and is just the glue that holds saints together at times. Perhaps not as flashy as Clark, but just as good.

Also, not sure why Roby "needs" to be rotated, he's been playing without being so for the best part of 2 years. If were playing only one hooker it has to be Roby.

That said, rotating between Clark and Roby is the best option of all imo, the 4 props we have are capable of playing longer minutes then were actualy giving them, and there's no once actually worth dislodging the second hooker for in the back row

I don't watch Roby every week but when I do he doesn't look the same player as in years gone by especially in attack. It's no shame to be overtaken by a fresher, quicker version of himself though which is what's happened IMO. Roby is a top class hooker and for so long he's been nailed on to be England's 9 but he's now in competition with a lad who I believe has not only been the best hooker in superleague this year but the best player.

It's a great position for England to be in tbh. That competition should drive them both and others to keep improving.

The only criticism Roby can get this season is that hes getting through so much defensive work it does affect his attacking game - but thats more a criticism of the pack around him at times! Roby showed precisely how close Clark is in the saints vs Cas game - everyones entitled to their opinion though

its much better to have these arguments than to be struggling to name who should have the place!

I'd probably go with Hardaker in the centres, it's the one position we still seem to struggle to produce quality players in this country. Watkins is the only international standard specialist British centre in SL IMO. Players like Shenton, Atkins and Cudjoe are excellent SL players but always look out of their depth at international level. Reed is another option, but I think if Hardaker finishes this season in his pre-ban form then he should be in the starting XIII.

We've got plenty of good young forwards, and I think this year's 4N should be the start of phasing out a lot of our 30+ players. I've got Lockers in there because he's too good not to pick if he's available, but I agree with everyone who has stated concerns about his injuries, and it may well be we need to start thinking of a new long-term 13.

Tomkins
Charnley
Watkins
Hardaker
Hall
Widdop
Sinfield (though I think this year should definitely be the time to start looking at more long-term options, he will always be McNamara's first pick)
Graham
Roby
Hill
Farrell
Ferres
O'Loughlin

G Burgess
Taylor/Walmsley/Amor/Huby
Whitehead/Westwood/Bateman - possibly Joel Tomkins depending on how he plays on his return, he's looking an absolute monster
Clark

I think the biggest cause for concern in this England team is Steve McNamara because I wouldn't put it past him to rangi chase in with sinfield again

In terms of selections McNamara has generally done a better job than many people give him credit for. He also made sure Widdopp chose England rather than Origin, which meant making a very early call on picking him. As it stands if fit Widdopp is likely to be England's 6 for years to come.

Its easy to criticise him - I'd say he probably retained Chase for one game too long last year - but its not as though he had Andy Gregory and Garry Schofield ready to play but not being picked.

The more I watch Tomkins BTW the more I'd be looking at moving him to 6 or even 7 for England, as his defence at the back will be an absolute liability, whereas Hardaker can run the ball back hard and is far more secure under the high ball and one-on-one. I'd risk Tomkins in the line.

TBH if Clark can play 80 minutes and Roby can't, I'd go with Clark. We lose far too much having to interchange the hooker. Maybe Roby should watch how Cameron Smith takes breathers in games - he's the best I've seen at picking moments to let someone else into acting half or make a tackle.

S Tomkins
T Makinson
K Watkins
M Shenton
R Hall
G Widdop
K Sinfield
J Graham
J Roby
G Burgess
B Ferres
B Westwood
E Whitehead

C Hill
M Cooper
D Clark
L Farrell

This is roughly what I think McNamara will go for. I can't fit Hardaker in the team and I still expect Sinfield to hold a place for a while yet, so Sneyd and Brown miss out too. McIlorum and O'Loughlin have been injured too much to be included, and Charnley, Cudjoe and Briscoe haven't shown international standard form this year. Mike Cooper will get the nod over Huby/Amor (other SL props) because he's in Oz in a closer spotlight to the coach, not that he doesn't deserve it mind. You can't omit Shenton and Whitehead due to blistering form either. Jack Reed always gets a mention but if you watch the NRL he hasn't been amazing.

Sam Tomkins has been pretty much playing in the halves for the Warriors this year anyway, he's more than capable of slotting in there.

As for the backrower debate, I'd put Whitehead in there, he's been brilliant.

If he doesn't pick Clark he should be sacked on the spot.

Roby does 80 minutes at Saints almost every week, it's a myth he can't.

I've always wondered why Austrailia have a half back on the bench to be honest, I think that's a far more debatable tactic than having an interchange hooker.

1. Hardaker
2. Charnley
3. Shenton
4. Watkins
5. Hall
6. S.Tomkins
7. Widdop
8. Graham (c)
9. Roby
10. Hill
11. Ferres
12. Westwood
13. O'Loughlin

14. G.Burgess
15. Clarke
16. Taylor
17. J.Tomkins/Farrell (see how quickly he gets back up to speed)

18. Sinfield
19. Makinson/Briscoe (see how they go in the play offs)
20. Reed
21. Cooper
22. Huby
23. Burrow
24. Farrell/Bateman (depending on whether J.Tomkins looks good enough)

Hardaker is too good to leave out IMO especially as S.Tomkins defence at FB can be a bit suspect and we struggle for good half backs. As someone who watches Smith every week I'm not yet convinced of his ability to turn up in big games, particularly when things aren't going our way. I know it's tough to play behind a beaten pack but I still think Widdop or Tomkins would have thrown more at the opposition v Leeds (A) and Cas (H, cup) this year than Smith did.

Agree entirely about Smith. Another in a long line of competent British half backs who look good behind a dominant team. He is a good passer & kicker but is not creative nor a danger anywhere but near the line. He reminds me very much of Deacon in that respect.

Well he ignored last years Man of Steel, Albert Goldthorpe medal winner, Capt of the League leaders and SLs top point scorer so don't think he's not capable of ignoring Clarke

Indeed he is. But he's a former Wire player. I'm surprised people are picking Chris Hill.....well, apart from Wakey Saint who decided to pick Kyle Amor instead.

Hill's a definite starter for me and I know its bordering on heresy, but, is Westwood's current form good enough to get him selected?

OPTIONS
In order of preference

Full Back
Tomkins
Hardaker
Lomax

Wings
Hall
Makinson
Burgess
Charnley
Briscoe
McGilveray

Centres
Watkins
Shenton
Reed
Atkins
Cudjoe
Caton-Brown

Stand Off
Widdop
Ratchford
Brown
McGuire

Scrum Half
Brough
Sneyd
Sinfield
Smith

Props
Graham
Hill
G Burgess
Taylor
Amor
Walmsley
Huby
T Burgess
Crabtree

Hooker
Roby
Clarke
Lunt
Mcllorum
Houghton

Second Rowers
Ferres
Whitehead
Westwood
Farrell
Bateman
Kirmond


Loose Forward
O'Loughlin
Westerman

Obviously your agenda of "everybody is against Wire" got in the way of you actually reading my post

...pretty sure if you look back at it I had "8. Amor & 15. Hill" and therefore said clearly I would pick both and not Amor instead of Hill.

FWIW I think both are very similar players and rate both very highly. I picked Amor to start as I think Hill would make a bigger impact from the bench than Kyle, using Amor to do the solid graft and introduce Hill after 20 mins when defences are tiring for the yards and breaks he is capable of making...on form I think both should make the starting 17 and to be fair, who starts and who is on the bench is a bit irrelevant as props interchanging like that usually play similar minutes in a game anyway.

Maybe next time you should actually read what somebody posts properly, rather than getting half way down and jumping to incorrect conclusions that just make you look a tad stupid

I'd go along with this team but you'd have to ask what Charnley has done this season to get in?

Everything else I agree with as I don't think anyone is going to get the bench right as it depends largely on how we want to play. Although I'd definitely have both Roby and Clarke in the 17. The Aussies must be jealous of that!

Don't see how anyone can pick Bateman or Kirmond, and to a less extent Ferres over Ablett, Ablett has been one of the best 2nd rowers in SL this season.

Agreed, Ablett has been very good. But I would put Bateman in as well, although Mcnamara will keep one as a sub, not use them then wonder why a half back had stepped passed a knackard prop in 79th minute.

1. Hardaker
2, Briscoe (just a head of Makinson)
3. Watkins
4. Shenton
5. Hall
6. Tomkins
7. Widdop
8. Graham
9. Roby
10. Hill
11. Ferres
12. Whitehead
13. O'loughlin

14. Clark
15. Huby
16. G Burgess
17. Ablett/Bateman

Shows how much depth we have

Bateman has probably been Wigans player of the season (he's certainly many Wigan fans choice in a thread on our board) and whilst very young is looking a very good player already.

Better then Ablett? Not sure, I don't see enough of him but Bateman is pushing up in to international contention you'd have to think.