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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"I thought the RFL weren't scrutinising the accounts, they got a third party in to do that. And don't auditors pass comment on the balance sheet and the rest of the books of every limited company/Plc in the published accounts anyway?'"
KPMG did an audit, and the rfl made a decision on the information passed to them by KPMG | | |
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| Quote ="Pepe"You cannot know that for sure, any more than I do.
Both of us can only speculate. I believe the whole process was a goer from the moment they released their 2005 document. '" Well the RFL have told us so. They told us in 2005 what they aimed to do, and in 2008 what they have managed to do. If you want to speculate on the basis of 0 evidence that something different that is your prerogative. But thats why its generally dismissed as paranoid rantings.
Quote Of course.
There’s only so many places that a club has available for youth development and, I’m sure, that many are overlooked.
The bigger presence a club has in it’s town, via being in the top flight, the more people will be interested in the sport, thus the more youngsters want to play the game. Is it not the primary reason for placing expansion clubs in Super League? '" do you believe there is as many potential players in the small area of Widnes missed by the clubs around them as there is in the whole of Wales?
Quote You said that Widnes was ‘surrounded by SL clubs’.
It is not. Answer the questions, instead of avoiding them. '" i apologise, there may be degrees of direction which dont immediately hit another pro RL club. Unless of course we remember the world is an oblate spheroid and every direction simply leads back to the same point, but surely we arent being that ridiculous are we? Surely we understand the term 'surrounded' was used to say there are a lot in the immediate area, rather than there is one in every direction dont we?
Quote Because the clubs’ new ethos and raison d'être is based on the production of youngsters to the first team in a way that several other clubs in SL, are not. The club has shown it can produce quality players anyway, but they are now expanding the search right across the borough and beyond and crating new pathways for youngsters in areas that they didn’t exist before. We now have the kind money and the infrastructure to do this. Some clubs in SL don’t and won't do this to the same degree, imo. '" This is a good thing, you certainly wont find me arguing against it. But it is something all clubs should be doing. The Crusaders are doing something only Crusaders can do.
Quote Which is great, and a very good reason for putting them in Super League, but nowhere near enough, on it’s own to justify them being put into SL via the bid process. '" But it wasnt on its own, simply a part of an overall judgement. Bar Widnes (who lets not forget had the unfortunately timed financial issues) the attendances and stadia (currently in use) werent vastly different.
Quote Let me know when it produces players that will be ever-present members of the Crusaders and a player capable of getting in the England squad. Yes, I know they’d be heading for the Welsh squad, but you get Championship players in there too. So I mean comparable with a player who could be regarded as England standard. '" It will do. Give it time. It doesnt have the amateur game the heartlands do, that is still being built.
Quote I’m not confusing anything. These are areas all clubs need to be rigorously scrutinized on, regardless of where it is situated, as it actually shows whether, or not, it is capable of staying in business for the period of it’s licence.'" but they arent the only ones.
Quote You can’t just say it’s all about bringing Welsh players through. If the club cannot stay solvent, it cannot give them a proper pathway to the sport. '" And it should stay solvent. Im not defending some of the things which have happened, simply that we are better where we are now, than had crusaders been left out. The idea that we would be better leaving them in the championships is nonsense.
Quote Which is why there’s little point in trying to judge them on exactly the same criteria.
'" All clubs were judged on the same criteria, however some criteria was a much bigger part of some bids than others. This shouldnt be confused with the criteria which was used to group them
Quote So, you’re saying that, once they got past the grading, they looked at who was in the C Grade group and said, we’ll have them, them and them and leave the rest where they are'" Yes, Quote regardless of whether or not they were actually suitable and capable of staying solvent in Super League? '" no
Quote Yes we can expand. I’ve already told you how I think it should be done. I agree that times have changed and it is important to create a ‘national footprint’.'" Good
Quote Simply saying those clubs who have been around for 100 years and are in the Championship, means they can never be a force again, is just wrong. Success is often cyclical in sport. They can be up one decade and down the next. It all depends on many factors. My club has been very successful over the last 100 years, thank you very much!'" I havent said that. However im not sure that a fair few of the clubs who have been successful in a semi-pro game, could again compete in the pro game.
Quote One thing is for sure, the way the RFL has managed expansion, most of these precious new clubs, they will be lucky to see out the next 10 years, never mind 100.'" Catalans are doing pretty well. Quins do need to improve, and last season Crusaders showed a lot of encouraging signs.
Quote Because they tried to pretend that they were running a stringent and fair bidding process in order to bring this about.
IMO, they didn’t.
What this shows is they knew what they wanted to do, and which clubs would be in SL, as far back as 2005. The licence bid process was nothing more than a sham, in order to hoodwink those clubs in the Championship into backing a licence system. If they had simply said that an extra expansion club would be included, in the form of the Celtic Crusaders, and made a strong case for them, it may have been accepted anyway. At least the Championship clubs would have known where they stand. '" They did, just because you disagree with some of the things they were judged on and the weighting applied to those things, doesnt mean it was unfair or wasnt stringent.
Quote Still waiting for an answer on this?
'"
i cant argue against it, i disagree with your premise.
Quote Great, but not enough without being able to stay solvent in Super League. At the time we were sold a South Wales aspect. Now we have a different club 150 miles to the North. This is not what was offered. This was lost because the RFL didn’t ensure they were capable of surviving, '" Its not the RFLs job to do so.
Quote They’re dead. They don’t exist in the form they presented themselves at the bid process, anymore.'" Like Widnes a matter of months prior to the bids?
Quote Not anymore, but the new club might'" Like Widnes then?
Quote I seriously hope they do. But the jury is still out. '" Then we have no need to pre-judge it do we!
Quote Which, anyway you care to look at it, pre-judges the bid process. '" No, it doesnt.
Quote
I wouldn’t mind knowing how the RFL, regarded the Celtic Crusaders as financially viable. What we know now shows a complete lack of due diligence on their behalf, which leads me to believe that they couldn’t give a poop for the criteria. They wanted them in, regardless.'" Which im sure you can understand that a fair amount of companies wouldnt want someones opinion of their financial position released, especially someone in authority. | | | |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"What did Leigh contribute to SL in their brief and embarrassingly disastrous period there?
quote
We contributed as much as the Celtic Crusaders did , the only difference playing wise was one point , that was down to Mr Ganson and his ineptitude at our match with HULL at home , this was despite us needing 38 players that season due to injuries [ no sympathy for us though unlike many other clubs and without the extra 3/4 months to prepare
The one season in Bridgend obviously wasn't a financial success , was it as the club needed bailing out straight afterwards , unlike Leigh of course who actually made a small profit in 2005
So if we were an embarrassment , what would you call a club that got one more point and then had to sell itself to continue ?
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| Quote ="Starbug"
Quote ="Starbug"
We contributed as much as the Celtic Crusaders did , the only difference playing wise was one point , that was down to Mr Ganson and his ineptitude at our match with HULL at home , this was despite us needing 38 players that season due to injuries [ no sympathy for us though unlike many other clubs and without the extra 3/4 months to prepare
The one season in Bridgend obviously wasn't a financial success , was it as the club needed bailing out straight afterwards , unlike Leigh of course who actually made a small profit in 2005
So if we were an embarrassment , what would you call a club that got one more point and then had to sell itself to continue ?'" '"
It's not embarassing being beaten by a better team or teams in any sport - if you are bottom of a league then it's for a reason - you simply weren't good enough at that level,that's all.....
it's amazing,when you think back that you did actually make a profit with such small crowds ! didn't you have the smallest average attendance in 2005 ?
Does the club still make a profit in the Championship ? | | |
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| Quote ="sanjunien"It's not embarassing being beaten by a better team or teams in any sport - if you are bottom of a league then it's for a reason - you simply weren't good enough at that level,that's all.....
it's amazing,when you think back that you did actually make a profit with such small crowds ! didn't you have the smallest average attendance in 2005 ?
Does the club still make a profit in the Championship ?'"
Absolutely not, I think Salford and London both had lower averages | | | |
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| Quote ="DemonUK"Absolutely not, I think Salford and London both had lower averages'"
The usual suspects eh? | | |
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| Quote ="DemonUK"Absolutely not, I think Salford and London both had lower averages'"
according to Wikipedia on the Leigh Centurions page it reads :
"Leigh's Super League season of 2005, however, proved a disaster and the club were relegated back to National League One after winning just two games. That season Leigh fans were criticised for the poor support after only gaining an average of 3,199 the lowest in Super League that season, just behind London who gained an average of 3,251."
someone's telling porkies...must be Wikipedia ! | | |
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| Quote ="sanjunien"according to Wikipedia on the Leigh Centurions page it reads :
"Leigh's Super League season of 2005, however, proved a disaster and the club were relegated back to National League One after winning just two games. That season Leigh fans were criticised for the poor support after only gaining an average of 3,199 the lowest in Super League that season, just behind London who gained an average of 3,251."
someone's telling porkies...must be Wikipedia !'"
Yeah, wiki is wrong. Leigh's average was around 4700 I think.
EDIT: On RLFANS Statistics Leigh's average for 2005 is quoted as 4736. Which as stated wasn't the lowest at all. | | | |
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| Quote ="Nozzy"Yeah, wiki is wrong. Leigh's average was around 4700 I think.
EDIT: On RLFANS Statistics Leigh's average for 2005 is quoted as 4736. Which as stated wasn't the lowest at all.'"
sounds a lot better than 3199 - what percentage of that 4736 was travelling fans do you think ? | | |
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| Quote ="sanjunien"according to Wikipedia on the Leigh Centurions page it reads :
"Leigh's Super League season of 2005, however, proved a disaster and the club were relegated back to National League One after winning just two games. That season Leigh fans were criticised for the poor support after only gaining an average of 3,199 the lowest in Super League that season, just behind London who gained an average of 3,251."
someone's telling porkies...must be Wikipedia !'"
You can check for yourself by following [url=http://www.slstats.org/this link[/url which also appears under the sub-heading 'Statistics' towards the top right of this very page.
Incidentally, the incorrect attendance figures have now been removed from the Wikipedia page  | | |
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| Quote ="prehensile"You can check for yourself by following [url=http://www.slstats.org/this link[/url which also appears under the sub-heading 'Statistics' towards the top right of this very page.
Incidentally, the incorrect attendance figures have now been removed from the Wikipedia page
'"
brilliant,thanks for the info  | | | |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA" the RFL have told us so. They told us in 2005 what they aimed to do, and in 2008 what they have managed to do. If you want to speculate on the basis of 0 evidence that something different that is your prerogative. But thats why its generally dismissed as paranoid rantings. '"
The link you provided:
[urlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/4556801.stm[/url
The RFL, and Richard Lewis in particular, are clearly announcing that licencing will be going ahead in 2009, when the current (at that time, 2005) television deal with BSkyB expires at the end of 2008. This isn’t suggesting that they are merely considering moving to a licence system, but they’re announcing this plan as a fait accompli. The plan had been discussed with all the clubs and the go-ahead given, with definite time-lines, leading to it happening in 2009 and after the licence process being gone through in 2008.
There is no mention of uncertainly about a deal being reached with BSkyB for this and, as such, this would suggest that some sort of agreement had been made with them already.
The article even mentions that a club, in based Bridgend, will be considered. They hadn’t even played a game by then!
After reading that article, it is far from being paranoid to suggest the whole process and outcome was decided in 2005, if not before.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" do you believe there is as many potential players in the small area of Widnes missed by the clubs around them as there is in the whole of Wales?'"
I believe that we can dramatically increase the number and quality of players coming through the system from the Widnes area. Given that the Club is now also developing young players across all the schools in the entire borough of halton, and developing links on across our boarders to the South and West, where there is no competition from professional RL or RU, Yes.
Wales, due to its strong love RU, is not a free and unfettered area. There will be a lot of competition for the best young athletes, particularly in the South. They may even lose the young players they produce themselves to RU. I would hope that the RFL now set up a strong amateur base in the North, where there would be much less competition from other pro sports clubs.
A lot will depend on the effort made by the two clubs, and the coaching and academy set-ups. This is why a club needs to be financially viable. It is a very costly and time-consuming business trying to bring your own youth through, and with no guarantee of success. This is why many clubs choose the easy option of bringing in ready-made players from outside their areas.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" i apologise, there may be degrees of direction which dont immediately hit another pro RL club. Unless of course we remember the world is an oblate spheroid and every direction simply leads back to the same point, but surely we arent being that ridiculous are we? Surely we understand the term 'surrounded' was used to say there are a lot in the immediate area, rather than there is one in every direction dont we?'"
I actually LOL’d when I reads this. How on earth can you be surrounded on only two sides?
This sort of thing sums you up.
However, it is a very important point. We are not surrounded on two sides; this means that we have very little, or no, competition for both fans and young players from other Super league clubs. This puts us in an, almost, unique and advantageous position.
This is why I challenged you on it.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" But it wasnt on its own, simply a part of an overall judgement. Bar Widnes (who lets not forget had the unfortunately timed financial issues) the attendances and stadia (currently in use) werent vastly different. '"
I’m concentrating on the club that made the bid, and that wasn’t in Wrexham. Therefore, bringing in their ground as a defence for the Celtic Crusaders, is meaningless.
This ‘overall judgement’ is what is confusing me. I cannot, for the life of me, see what on earth they had to offer, other than expansion – when compared to some of the clubs they rejected. We now know that it is very likely that they must have already been heading for financial meltdown, from their attempt to meet their end of the bargain and achieve promotion to NL1 and also look to be impressive there too, even as their bid was made.
I agree that the company now running the Widnes Vikings is completely different but, unlike the the Celtic Crusaders/Crusaders, they play in the same stadium, in the same town, in the same colours and with the same fans. It is still exactly the same club. The Crusaders are not.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Catalans are doing pretty well. Quins do need to improve, and last season Crusaders showed a lot of encouraging signs. '"
I agree with what you say about the W/Crusaders. They looked much better right from the start from the shambles of a club the Celtic Crusaders were. They now have a good ground and a better support base. I even thought their playing kit and new look emblem looked great. This is the club they could have been from the start, if the RFL had done as I had suggested.
Now that they will have a clean financial bill of health, it is time for the RFL to come clean and tell us all that they will have a ring-fenced place in Super League, along with the Harlequins and les Catalans.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"It will do. Give it time. It doesnt have the amateur game the heartlands do, that is still being built. '"
The problem is, is they have been in a constant state of rebuilding since they entered SL. As a result, it will take much longer. I admit it would be unfair to expect instant results, and that they could never have produced many quality players within the 3 year licence period they were given. Given the poor youth set up they inherited from the Celtic Crusaders, it is hardly surprising. I’m not sure what else they have in place, to recruit young players from their local area, but the setting up of the Scorpions was a step in the right direction. They probably have the first real feeder club in British RL.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" but they arent the only ones.'"
Yes, I found it strange that some clubs were allowed to have promises, in the form of computer generated stadium images, considered as actual substance, while other clubs already had them in place and they were ignored. Completely baffling. I could see that most of these clubs did have other redeeming areas that surround their clubs but, what Celtic had to offer other than expansion, with all its ambiguous possibilities, I could not see or understand.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" And it should stay solvent. Im not defending some of the things which have happened, simply that we are better where we are now, than had crusaders been left out. The idea that we would be better leaving them in the championships is nonsense.'"
I’m not arguing that the Crusaders should have been left in the Championship. Seeing how that league has deteriorated, since the licence era begun, it is nearly impossible for any club to grow there now, imo.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" I havent said that. However im not sure that a fair few of the clubs who have been successful in a semi-pro game, could again compete in the pro game.'"
I think, with the salary cap, it should be easier for smaller clubs to compete. I’m not sure that I entirely agree with the salary cap, but it has been an ever present since the Super league era.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" All clubs were judged on the same criteria, however some criteria was a much bigger part of some bids than others. This shouldnt be confused with the criteria which was used to group them'"
But, unless the RFL quantify this, it will always look like they lack transparency.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Yes '"
Well, no wonder many question the integrity of the bid process. Can you provide a link that confirms that the RFL have stated, once they have found out who the C grades were, they will just pick the clubs they feel like picking, regardless of its merits (as represented by the bid process)?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"They did, just because you disagree with some of the things they were judged on and the weighting applied to those things, doesnt mean it was unfair or wasnt stringent. '"
Quote ="SmokeyTA" no '"
Then, as the Celtic Crusaders only lasted half a season before requiring financial assistance (in the form of an RFL financial team), does that not cast doubt as to the rigour and, to a certain extent, the integrity of the licence process under the RFL?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Its not the RFLs job to do so. '"
When they are running a, supposedly, ‘Stringent’ licence process it is certainly their duty to ensure that the clubs they grant a licence to are financially fit for purpose.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Like Widnes then? '"
The company running Widnes is new but, as explained earlier, the club itself isn’t. Anymore than when it changed from a members club to a PLC.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Which im sure you can understand that a fair amount of companies wouldnt want someones opinion of their financial position released, especially someone in authority. '"
I’m sure they could give us an explination without revealing too much. Anyway, that company no longer exists, so why would it matter anymore? | | |
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| Quote ="Pepe"The link you provided:
[urlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/4556801.stm[/url
The RFL, and Richard Lewis in particular, are clearly announcing that licencing will be going ahead in 2009, when the current (at that time, 2005) television deal with BSkyB expires at the end of 2008. This isn’t suggesting that they are merely considering moving to a licence system, but they’re announcing this plan as a fait accompli. The plan had been discussed with all the clubs and the go-ahead given, with definite time-lines, leading to it happening in 2009 and after the licence process being gone through in 2008.
There is no mention of uncertainly about a deal being reached with BSkyB for this and, as such, this would suggest that some sort of agreement had been made with them already.
The article even mentions that a club, in based Bridgend, will be considered. They hadn’t even played a game by then!
After reading that article, it is far from being paranoid to suggest the whole process and outcome was decided in 2005, if not before.'" Im not disputing they had decided to move to a licensing system. In fact that is what that press release is about. What I am disputing is your clearly paranoid assumption that they had decided how many and which clubs at this point in 2005. They hadnt, that didnt happen until a) negotiations had been completed with sky so that they could decide how many in 2008, and B) the bids had been sumbitted and judged so they could decided who,
Quote I believe that we can dramatically increase the number and quality of players coming through the system from the Widnes area. Given that the Club is now also developing young players across all the schools in the entire borough of halton, and developing links on across our boarders to the South and West, where there is no competition from professional RL or RU, Yes.
Wales, due to its strong love RU, is not a free and unfettered area. There will be a lot of competition for the best young athletes, particularly in the South. They may even lose the young players they produce themselves to RU. I would hope that the RFL now set up a strong amateur base in the North, where there would be much less competition from other pro sports clubs.
A lot will depend on the effort made by the two clubs, and the coaching and academy set-ups. This is why a club needs to be financially viable. It is a very costly and time-consuming business trying to bring your own youth through, and with no guarantee of success. This is why many clubs choose the easy option of bringing in ready-made players from outside their areas.'"
there are 119,000 people in Halton Borough, there are 3million in Wales. To say there are more potential players in Halton than Wales is nonsense.
Quote I actually LOL’d when I reads this. How on earth can you be surrounded on only two sides?
This sort of thing sums you up.
However, it is a very important point. We are not surrounded on two sides; this means that we have very little, or no, competition for both fans and young players from other Super league clubs. This puts us in an, almost, unique and advantageous position.
This is why I challenged you on it. '" It isnt a 'very important point' it is a nonsense point. There are three SL clubs, all bigger than Widnes in the immediate area. The Market in that area is very saturated. There arent going to be a lot of young people in the area that dont play RL because they dont know of the game, there arent going to be many who dont get scouted. The fact there is no club in some of the three hundered and 60 degrees of direction is irrelevant.
Quote I’m concentrating on the club that made the bid, and that wasn’t in Wrexham. Therefore, bringing in their ground as a defence for the Celtic Crusaders, is meaningless. '" i have no idea what point you are making here, or certainly what point you think i was making.
Quote This ‘overall judgement’ is what is confusing me. I cannot, for the life of me, see what on earth they had to offer, other than expansion – when compared to some of the clubs they rejected. We now know that it is very likely that they must have already been heading for financial meltdown, from their attempt to meet their end of the bargain and achieve promotion to NL1 and also look to be impressive there too, even as their bid was made. '" first of all, no we dont. Thats your speculation.
But you cannot see that they had the potential to have good crowds, their attendance in NL1 was only a couple of hundred less the Catalans were in the elite. That they had the potential to have fantastic youth development, opening up a brand new player pool, they had great marketing potential with being the only club in wales and the 'welsh' club. Look at what they had acheived with S4C.
on the flip side, what are the other clubs offering us? as a positve? what is the RFL to sit back and look at say Leigh's or Halifax's bid and say 'you know what, that will really add to the league, thats something we dont already have in abundance done better'?
Quote I agree that the company now running the Widnes Vikings is completely different but, unlike the the Celtic Crusaders/Crusaders, they play in the same stadium, in the same town, in the same colours and with the same fans. It is still exactly the same club. The Crusaders are not. '" it isnt exactly the same club, the club closed down, the playing staff and the name were sold on, just like Crusaders, you may not like it, and i would understand why, but that is how it is.
Quote I agree with what you say about the W/Crusaders. They looked much better right from the start from the shambles of a club the Celtic Crusaders were. They now have a good ground and a better support base. I even thought their playing kit and new look emblem looked great. This is the club they could have been from the start, if the RFL had done as I had suggested'" and they wouldnt have got here without being where they were. Similarly Widnes wouldnt be in the position they were without going all the problems they had.
Quote Now that they will have a clean financial bill of health, it is time for the RFL to come clean and tell us all that they will have a ring-fenced place in Super League, along with the Harlequins and les Catalans'" why would they tell us something they havent done?.
Quote
The problem is, is they have been in a constant state of rebuilding since they entered SL. As a result, it will take much longer. I admit it would be unfair to expect instant results, and that they could never have produced many quality players within the 3 year licence period they were given. Given the poor youth set up they inherited from the Celtic Crusaders, it is hardly surprising. I’m not sure what else they have in place, to recruit young players from their local area, but the setting up of the Scorpions was a step in the right direction. They probably have the first real feeder club in British RL. '" So, even though it was a struggle, we are now in a very good position to move forward. None of this would have been achieved had we not taken the risk.
Quote Yes, I found it strange that some clubs were allowed to have promises, in the form of computer generated stadium images, considered as actual substance, while other clubs already had them in place and they were ignored. Completely baffling. I could see that most of these clubs did have other redeeming areas that surround their clubs but, what Celtic had to offer other than expansion, with all its ambiguous possibilities, I could not see or understand. '" maybe the potential of Wakefield in a new stadium was better than the guarantee of Leigh in a new stadium?
I've already told you what Crusaders offer, you just ignore it or put it under a very vague and broad label of expansion.
Quote I’m not arguing that the Crusaders should have been left in the Championship. Seeing how that league has deteriorated, since the licence era begun, it is nearly impossible for any club to grow there now, imo. '" Glad you agree they should have been promoted.
Quote I think, with the salary cap, it should be easier for smaller clubs to compete. I’m not sure that I entirely agree with the salary cap, but it has been an ever present since the Super league era. '" they can compete, they cant win. And they wont win.
Quote But, unless the RFL quantify this, it will always look like they lack transparency'" That is the point of a qualitative and subjective judgement, it cant be quantified.
Quote Well, no wonder many question the integrity of the bid process. Can you provide a link that confirms that the RFL have stated, once they ave found out who the C grades were, they will just pick the clubs they feel like picking, regardless of its merits (as represented by the bid process)?'" ive already posted one for you, see the YEP link, also try the RFL website,
Quote Then, as the Celtic Crusaders only lasted half a season before requiring financial assistance (in the form of an RFL financial team), does that not cast doubt as to the rigour and, to a certain extent, the integrity of the licence process under the RFL?
When they are running a, supposedly, ‘Stringent’ licence process it is certainly their duty to ensure that the clubs they grant a licence to are financially fit for purpose. '" Or it says things changed in the meantime.
Quote I’m sure they could give us an explination without revealing too much. Anyway, that company no longer exists, so why would it matter anymore?'" but it would exist at the time you wanted them to give you the info. And they couldnt give any opinion without revealing too much, it is far far far beyond the RFLs role to start making public their opinion of a companies financial position. | | |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA" Im not disputing they had decided to move to a licensing system. In fact that is what that press release is about. What I am disputing is your clearly paranoid assumption that they had decided how many and which clubs at this point in 2005. They hadnt, that didnt happen until a) negotiations had been completed with sky so that they could decide how many in 2008, and B) the bids had been sumbitted and judged so they could decided who, '"
So you have now moved from this position:
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Again, you are making a massive, frankly a little ridiculous leap from the conclusions of a 2005 strategy document for SL that came from the SL clubs and the RFL, before the franchise system had even been proposed, let alone agreed.'"
To this potision:
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Im not disputing they had decided to move to a licensing system.'"
And now you’re admitting that the franchise system had been proposed, as early as 2005.
As far as the BskyB deal goes, there must have been some agreement reached in 2005, if not earlier, that would run after the current deal they had with them ran out in 2008. There is no way the RFL would be making such bold announcements and giving time-lines out to the press and stating that the licence process will go ahead in 2009, only to look like fools when BskyB turned them down. I would say that the main thing the RFL and BskyB would have to wait for, would be to see if they could get their new expansion clubs in a position to be able to make a licence bid.
All the timelines fit like a glove too.
They make plans to set up a club in France in 2004, which will be entered into SL in 2006, with a 3 year non-relegation clause to take them right up to 2009.
They then approach Leighton Samuel and ask him to set up an RL club in Bridgend, with a 3 year plan to get to SL (provided LS kept his side of the bargain and got the club up to NL1) Leighton Samuel later admitted this in an interview.
They then announce that they have written up a document that states they will be setting up a SL with 2 more clubs, taking it to 14, and that the heartlands wouldn’t be able to provide enough viable clubs to make up the expanded league.
Does this not suggest that they thought they were short of 2 new expansion clubs to take up the slack which they thought the heartlands couldn’t cover?
If they thought that new expansion clubs were needed to take up the slack, as it couldn’t be provided by the heartlands, then what other conclusion could be drawn?
They clearly needed to set up one or more new expansion clubs to make up the shortfall they regarded was there. So they set up two new clubs in les Catalans and the Celtic Crusaders, which would have been up and running for three years and ready for their installment into SL in 2009. It is doubtful that they would go to the trouble of doing this, just to turn them down in 2009. In fact, they were cast iron certs, imo. They had to be, because they had stated back in 2005 that the heartland wouldn’t be able to supply enough clubs which would be of SL standard in 2009.
Or it could be just a happy coincidence that both of these clubs were fit for SL after just over 2 years in existence, and in a position to make up the short fall that the RFL says was there from the heartland clubs?
Yeah, Right!
They knew how many heartland clubs they wanted and how many expansion clubs they needed before 2005. They then took steps to set up the expansion clubs they thought they needed and released a document to tell us all it was necessary. They then began the PR routine with the press and dropping the names of a few new expansion clubs, which they said will also be looked at for a licence, even before they had played a game of RL. That was the primer. There’s nothing definite, but it is obvious where this was leading to, given their past record and method of trying to shoehorn expansion clubs into SL, whether they are ready or not.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" there are 119,000 people in Halton Borough, there are 3million in Wales. To say there are more potential players in Halton than Wales is nonsense.
It isnt a 'very important point' it is a nonsense point. There are three SL clubs, all bigger than Widnes in the immediate area. The Market in that area is very saturated. There arent going to be a lot of young people in the area that dont play RL because they dont know of the game, there arent going to be many who dont get scouted. The fact there is no club in some of the three hundered and 60 degrees of direction is irrelevant.
'"
I have already explained why this could happen. Simply ignoring what I have said, doesn’t make what you are saying here right.
You can have a catchment area of a billion but, if you don’t put the funding and effort into developing youngsters, and lack the quality in infrastructure and coaching, or the club doesn’t have the will to take a chance on playing them in the first team, because they have a policy of no short term pain for long term gain, then the amount of people in your catcment area is irrelevant.
If a club has the serous will to exploit an advantage of being able to make the most of having no completion in an area that consists of 200,000, or more, then that is more than enough to bring a substantial amount of new players to the game.
Your tactic here is to refuse to even acknowledge what I actually said in my earlier reply on the subject. You barely addressed a single point. Either read it again and address the points properly, or admit that you are completely wrong.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" It isnt a 'very important point' it is a nonsense point. There are three SL clubs, all bigger than Widnes in the immediate area. The Market in that area is very saturated. There arent going to be a lot of young people in the area that dont play RL because they dont know of the game, there arent going to be many who dont get scouted. The fact there is no club in some of the three hundered and 60 degrees of direction is irrelevant. '"
So, what about the areas in North and West Cheshire, the Wirral or South West Liverpool, are they saturated?
Is there no opportunity whatsoever there?
Do you think that they are full of RL clubs?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"first of all, no we dont. Thats your speculation.
But you cannot see that they had the potential to have good crowds, their attendance in NL1 was only a couple of hundred less the Catalans were in the elite. That they had the potential to have fantastic youth development, opening up a brand new player pool, they had great marketing potential with being the only club in wales and the 'welsh' club. Look at what they had acheived with S4C. '"
Most of which is dubious, to say the least. I have already told you that Leighton Samuel admitted only having 200 season ticket holders in their first season in SL, at the same time he announced the club was £700k in debt, so god knows how many they will have had in NL1. It doesn’t really fill me with any sort of confidence in their figures.
The S4C link up ended as soon as they entered SL, didn’t it?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" on the flip side, what are the other clubs offering us? as a positve? what is the RFL to sit back and look at say Leigh's or Halifax's bid and say 'you know what, that will really add to the league, thats something we dont already have in abundance done better'?'"
I think that both of these clubs would’ve lasted more than half a season, before needing a team of accountants to keep them afloat, and them move them 150 miles away.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" it isnt exactly the same club, the club closed down, the playing staff and the name were sold on, just like Crusaders, you may not like it, and i would understand why, but that is how it is. '"
It’s not like the Celtic Crudsaders, though is it?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" and they wouldnt have got here without being where they were. Similarly '"
They could have tried there first, and then gone down the route which I have explained that I think they should have taken. Maybe we wouldn’t have had the Games reputation dragged through the mud every few months, in the media, due to one scandal and crisis after another being exposed, which has ultimately led to that clubs financial ruin. I bet the big name sponsors are just queuing up now to get involved with the game, as a result.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" maybe the potential of Wakefield in a new stadium was better than the guarantee of Leigh in a new stadium? '"
And obviously better than Widnes’cast iron financial guarantee (in the form of a £500k bond) from SOC, too.
That’s the RFL’s licence process for you. The indefinite is fine, depending who you are, while the definite is worthless, depending who you are.
I think this had more to do with the politics of setting up the licence system.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" I've already told you what Crusaders offer, you just ignore it or put it under a very vague and broad label of expansion. '"
Little of which had any substance.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Glad you agree they should have been promoted. '"
If the RFL had said they were in from the start, and ensured they weren’t in a position of having to run up crippling debts, in order to live up to being put into SL ahead of several worthy heartland clubs, yes.
The club that presented itself in 2008, no.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" That is the point of a qualitative and subjective judgement, it cant be quantified. '"
It can’t be quantified because the licence process is an ambiguous mountain of sh\te which, imo, the RFL needed it to be. It simply means that the RFL can pick whom they want with complete impunity.
In other words, it lacks even the veneer of transparency. It also failed on several areas.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Or it says things changed in the meantime. '"
What, within 3 months of being granted a licence?
Due diligence would have uncovered the problems CC had, if they were really interested in the first plaace.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"but it would exist at the time you wanted them to give you the info. And they couldnt give any opinion without revealing too much, it is far far far beyond the RFLs role to start making public their opinion of a companies financial position. '"
Quote ="SmokeyTA"'"
There’s nothing stopping them explaining this to us now, after the club has finally gone into administration and out again.
I mean, they may make this mistake again. It would be nice to know that they could explain why they failed to spot the financial problems they had, despite having a fiancial team of their own involved in the club – perhaps it was them who ed them up? | | |
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| Quote ="Pepe"So you have now moved from this position:
To this potision:
And now you’re admitting that the franchise system had been proposed, as early as 2005. '" A franchising system, not the franchising system,
Quote As far as the BskyB deal goes, there must have been some agreement reached in 2005, if not earlier, that would run after the current deal they had with them ran out in 2008. There is no way the RFL would be making such bold announcements and giving time-lines out to the press and stating that the licence process will go ahead in 2009, only to look like fools when BskyB turned them down. I would say that the main thing the RFL and BskyB would have to wait for, would be to see if they could get their new expansion clubs in a position to be able to make a licence bid.
All the timelines fit like a glove too. '" It only 'must' if we agree with your paranoid hypothesis, A perfect example of your circular reasoning. It becomes even more apparent when you the source you are using as evidence explicitly states [iLewis also stressed that plans for expansion were unlikely to take place until the current television deal with BSkyB expires at the end of 2008.[/i
Quote They make plans to set up a club in France in 2004, which will be entered into SL in 2006, with a 3 year non-relegation clause to take them right up to 2009.'" They were due to join in 2005, they chose to delay it by a year. Doesnt quite fit like a glove.
Quote They then approach Leighton Samuel and ask him to set up an RL club in Bridgend, with a 3 year plan to get to SL (provided LS kept his side of the bargain and got the club up to NL1) Leighton Samuel later admitted this in an interview. '" considering your propensity for simply mis-reading/making up statements i will have to ask for evidence
Quote They then announce that they have written up a document that states they will be setting up a SL with 2 more clubs, taking it to 14, and that the heartlands wouldn’t be able to provide enough viable clubs to make up the expanded league.
Does this not suggest that they thought they were short of 2 new expansion clubs to take up the slack which they thought the heartlands couldn’t cover?
If they thought that new expansion clubs were needed to take up the slack, as it couldn’t be provided by the heartlands, then what other conclusion could be drawn?'" "If we don't believe it is sustainable and we don't believe that enough players will come through to give us 14 clubs, we won't do it," he added.
Quote They clearly needed to set up one or more new expansion clubs to make up the shortfall they regarded was there. So they set up two new clubs in les Catalans and the Celtic Crusaders, which would have been up and running for three years and ready for their installment into SL in 2009. It is doubtful that they would go to the trouble of doing this, just to turn them down in 2009. In fact, they were cast iron certs, imo. They had to be, because they had stated back in 2005 that the heartland wouldn’t be able to supply enough clubs which would be of SL standard in 2009.
Or it could be just a happy coincidence that both of these clubs were fit for SL after just over 2 years in existence, and in a position to make up the short fall that the RFL says was there from the heartland clubs?
Yeah, Right!'" Except they didnt, UTC (as they were) were admitted to start in 2005, not 2006, they asked for a delay of one year. They also explicitly told us they didnt know how many clubs they would admit in 2009, in 2005, they didnt decide that until 2008. Your time line is off every step of the way.
Quote They knew how many heartland clubs they wanted and how many expansion clubs they needed before 2005. They then took steps to set up the expansion clubs they thought they needed and released a document to tell us all it was necessary. They then began the PR routine with the press and dropping the names of a few new expansion clubs, which they said will also be looked at for a licence, even before they had played a game of RL. That was the primer. There’s nothing definite, but it is obvious where this was leading to, given their past record and method of trying to shoehorn expansion clubs into SL, whether they are ready or not'" Other than every actual bit of evidence proving you wrong, its a nice story.
Quote I have already explained why this could happen. Simply ignoring what I have said, doesn’t make what you are saying here right.
You can have a catchment area of a billion but, if you don’t put the funding and effort into developing youngsters, and lack the quality in infrastructure and coaching, or the club doesn’t have the will to take a chance on playing them in the first team, because they have a policy of no short term pain for long term gain, then the amount of people in your catcment area is irrelevant.
If a club has the serous will to exploit an advantage of being able to make the most of having no completion in an area that consists of 200,000, or more, then that is more than enough to bring a substantial amount of new players to the game.
Your tactic here is to refuse to even acknowledge what I actually said in my earlier reply on the subject. You barely addressed a single point. Either read it again and address the points properly, or admit that you are completely wrong. '" I think you will find, when you look back, that the tactic you are describing is the one you are using. This isnt an argument over whether you think there is enough space for Widnes, you clearly do, i dont but that wasnt the point you were addressing. Which was again, there is more potential in Wales than in Widnes.
Quote So, what about the areas in North and West Cheshire, the Wirral or South West Liverpool, are they saturated?
Is there no opportunity whatsoever there?
Do you think that they are full of RL clubs?'" No they arent, but there are enough clubs in the area to 'pick up the slack' in these areas as the game grows.
Quote Most of which is dubious, to say the least. I have already told you that Leighton Samuel admitted only having 200 season ticket holders in their first season in SL, at the same time he announced the club was £700k in debt, so god knows how many they will have had in NL1. It doesn’t really fill me with any sort of confidence in their figures.
The S4C link up ended as soon as they entered SL, didn’t it?
'" Of course it is dubious to you, everything which can possibly mean the RFL thought Crusaders were a better bet than Widnes seemed dubious to you. But its irrelevant, the reasons where there, they were valid.
Quote I think that both of these clubs would’ve lasted more than half a season, before needing a team of accountants to keep them afloat, and them move them 150 miles away. '" Whoop di dooo, its not like SL is crying out for small northern towns putting out middling teams in front of mediocre crowds. If thats all they would have offered it simply confirms that Crusaders were the right decision
Quote It’s not like the Celtic Crudsaders, though is it?'" if it makes you feel better
Quote They could have tried there first, and then gone down the route which I have explained that I think they should have taken. Maybe we wouldn’t have had the Games reputation dragged through the mud every few months, in the media, due to one scandal and crisis after another being exposed, which has ultimately led to that clubs financial ruin. I bet the big name sponsors are just queuing up now to get involved with the game, as a result.'" The big name sponsors avoided the game like a plague before hand, so we have lost nothing there. They could have put a club in inner mongolia but nobody was willing to fund one, someone in South Wales was, then on the back of that someone in north wales was, and other people in south wales were. Sounds positive to me.
Quote And obviously better than Widnes’cast iron financial guarantee (in the form of a £500k bond) from SOC, too. '" Widnes were bust, less than a year old, and it tells you something they needed to offer £500k guarantee,
Quote That’s the RFL’s licence process for you. The indefinite is fine, depending who you are, while the definite is worthless, depending who you are.'" Yes, indeed, things are judged as whole.
Quote I think this had more to do with the politics of setting up the licence system.'" you seem to need to.
Quote If the RFL had said they were in from the start, and ensured they weren’t in a position of having to run up crippling debts, in order to live up to being put into SL ahead of several worthy heartland clubs, yes. '" Well, yes, if your paranoid hypothesis was true, the RFL should have done that, but considering it isnt, it would have been silly of them to do so.
BTW who are these worthy heartland clubs?
Quote It can’t be quantified because the licence process is an ambiguous mountain of sh\te which, imo, the RFL needed it to be. It simply means that the RFL can pick whom they want with complete impunity.
In other words, it lacks even the veneer of transparency. It also failed on several areas. '" Well, know, as i just explained to you, it cant be quantified because it was a qualitative judgement, its kind of how qualitative judgements work.
Quote What, within 3 months of being granted a licence?
Due diligence would have uncovered the problems CC had, if they were really interested in the first plaace.'" yes, things can change
Quote
There’s nothing stopping them explaining this to us now, after the club has finally gone into administration and out again.
I mean, they may make this mistake again. It would be nice to know that they could explain why they failed to spot the financial problems they had, despite having a fiancial team of their own involved in the club – perhaps it was them who loved them up?'" Other than it not being there information to give away yes. Other them likely being sued by leighton Samuels for releasing their opinion on private financial information of a company which belonged to him, and of course there being no real reason to do so. Yes they could have done | | |
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| Transparency is probably the wrong word for what we actually want
Honest is probably better
Less likely of course  | | |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"A franchising system, not the franchising system'"
It’s pretty clear that, what was proposed, was what happened. Therefore, it was the THE franchising system.
The difference between me and thee now, is that you seem to believe that, in 2005, there was nothing definite. This is despite the RFL and Richard Lewis giving a very detailed account of what it was about, when it would happen, how it would happen and dropping hints as to the inclusion of two new expansion clubs, both of which hadn’t yet played a single game.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"It only 'must' if we agree with your paranoid hypothesis, A perfect example of your circular reasoning. It becomes even more apparent when you the source you are using as evidence explicitly states Lewis also stressed that plans for expansion were unlikely to take place until the current television deal with BSkyB expires at the end of 2008. '"
What’s your point?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"They were due to join in 2005, they chose to delay it by a year. Doesnt quite fit like a glove. '"
That makes little difference. The new clubs are being set up within months of each other, and within months of a report the RFL have released that states the need to expand SL to 14 clubs and, at the same time, states that the heartland areas lack enough SL quality teams to fill those 14 places.
You may regard this as a happy coincidence but I, and many others, do not.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"considering your propensity for simply mis-reading/making up statements i will have to ask for evidence '"
I’ll ignore yet another one of your slurs. I recall reading an article from a link someone on here, or maybe the TIW board, where LS discussed this. I think it was just before, or just after, he bailed out of the club. It may have been on the BBC Sport website, as I’m sure there was a recorded interview as well as a written article. He even mentioned the names of the people who the RFL asked to approach him.
I’ll have a Google when I get time, unless some kind soul who remembers where it is posts it up.
Quote ="SmokeyTA""If we don't believe it is sustainable and we don't believe that enough players will come through to give us 14 clubs, we won't do it," he added. '"
We know that the RFL thought that the heartlands couldn’t provide enough players to a standard that would make competitive clubs for SL. They may, or may not have been right. That’s probably why the RFL thought it better to go with expansion clubs, as they can just recruit a team of antipodeans to make up for the lack of local talent. Heartland clubs don’t have this luxury, or not quite to the same extent anyway – nor should they.
This would have been a good argument to give the new expansion clubs a ring-fenced place. Imo, they knew full well who they wanted and how many clubs they wanted. This doesn’t really change that much, and was probably the RFL’s get out clause, should their new expansion clubs go tits up before 2009, as they clearly didn’t want to fill the extra places with heartland clubs. That would go against everything they have been trying to do since the Super League era started.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Except they didnt, UTC (as they were) were admitted to start in 2005, not 2006, they asked for a delay of one year. '"
It makes no difference. As I have already explained, this process could have been in the making well before 2005. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that Les Catalans were set up to be installed in a licenced SL in 2009. Why you think this makes a difference, I don’t understand.
Aren’t Les Catalans an amalgamation of two French clubs, not just one?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" They also explicitly told us they didnt know how many clubs they would admit in 2009, in 2005, they didnt decide that until 2008. Your time line is off every step of the way '"
I dealt with this matter yesterday, when I pointed out that the RFL would have had to have already gained some sort of initial agreement with BskyB. The main worry, for both parties, would have been that one or both of newly created expansion clubs failed before 2009. Neither party could be sure this wouldn’t happen. We both know that BskyB and the RFL weren’t looking to expand Super league for the benefit of heartland clubs in NL1. This whole process was about expansion; they wouldn’t say so, of course, but do you really think that this isn’t the case?
Therefore, if these expansion clubs were not available at the time of licencing, the league would not be expanded, until they had more expansion clubs in place. They’d already stated that the heartlands couldn’t provide the 14 clubs for expansion anyway. So why would they expand to 14 clubs, when they believe the heartlands cannot sustain 14 clubs?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Other than every actual bit of evidence proving you wrong, its a nice story. '"
Neither of us are in a position to know which one of us is right. You either believe what the RFL tell you, or you don’t.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" I think you will find, when you look back, that the tactic you are describing is the one you are using. This isnt an argument over whether you think there is enough space for Widnes, you clearly do, i dont but that wasnt the point you were addressing. Which was again, there is more potential in Wales than in Widnes. '"
Potential means nothing without the means, determination and ability to use it.
You are ignoring the fact that in South Wales there will be even stiffer competition for players, from local RU clubs, than there is in the heartland RL areas from RL clubs. RU is their national sport and has more money to spend. Most South Walian lads would be more tempted by what RU can offer them, probably even those which may come through the Crusaders’ own youth structure.
Then there’s the North, where no infrastructure for playing the game exists yet. There’s no proper service area or amateur game there. Even if none of this were true, they’d still have to have the right set up to make the most of it.
Widnes, and indeed, the whole of Halton now does have this infrastructure, and a club which is now dedicated to bringing youth through. They also have a first rate infrastructure for bringing them through. This is why we have so many of them in our squad these days, and why they have just had four of it’s young academy players selected for the 2011 England Academy squad for the forthcoming international games against Wales and France.
www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=3392
You must admit that it is impressive to be able to do this from the Championship.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" No they arent, but there are enough clubs in the area to 'pick up the slack' in these areas as the game grows. '"
This depends on the other clubs desire to do so in a meaningful way. It is very unlikely that many Scousers, or people from the Wirral peninsular, would be interested in Warrington unless they lived there. St Helens yes, Warrington, Wigan no.
I know that St Hellens have been active in promoting themselves in the areas of Liverpool which they boarder, particularly in the northern areas. This is why James Graham is now playing for them, who is from that area of Liverpool (maghull). This shows what potential there can be in that area, with a lot of effort. However, I have not heard of any push into South Liverpool, in the areas where Widnes boarder them, or into the Wirral or West Cheshire. These are free from interference from any other local RL clubs and would be more inclined to support Widnes and travel, with their youngsters to play for local amateur clubs, &c.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Of course it is dubious to you, everything which can possibly mean the RFL thought Crusaders were a better bet than Widnes seemed dubious to you. But its irrelevant, the reasons where there, they were valid. '"
It’s not just about Widnes. The way the licence decisions are made, will be of grave concern to every ambitious heartland club, and its fans, below SL.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Whoop di dooo, its not like SL is crying out for small northern towns putting out middling teams in front of mediocre crowds. If thats all they would have offered it simply confirms that Crusaders were the right decision '"
I believe, that if there were no CC or LC at the time of the licence decisions, SL wouldn’t have been expanded to 14 clubs anyway. This was never about them. I just would have liked to have been told this, by the RFL, openly.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" The big name sponsors avoided the game like a plague before hand, so we have lost nothing there. '"
Well, it’s even less likely now!
Quote ="SmokeyTA" They could have put a club in inner mongolia but nobody was willing to fund one, someone in South Wales was, then on the back of that someone in north wales was, and other people in south wales were. Sounds positive to me. '"
Not when they are dealing with a man of Leighton Samuel’s history of running a rugby club. For what he did to the Warriors, he was hated by most in the town they planted the new club too.
There is no reason that they couldn’t have approached someone else, maybe even at Wrexham. It would have even been easier for that club to take them on, as there would have been no baggage from the Bridgend fiasco. It was easy enough to set up the Scorpions fairly quickly. If they had done so, said they will be in SL in 2009, help fund the local RL infrastructure as they did for CC with 7 new amateur clubs along the M4 corridor, plus didn’t force them to have to get to NL1 to make a bid, they may have been in a better financial position and perhaps lasted longer than a season in SL.
I just think they went about the whole thing the wrong way.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Widnes were bust, less than a year old, and it tells you something they needed to offer £500k guarantee, '"
So, the Crusaders are screwed for 2012 then?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Other than it not being there information to give away yes. Other them likely being sued by leighton Samuels for releasing their opinion on private financial information of a company which belonged to him, and of course there being no real reason to do so. Yes they could have done '"
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It’s difficult to have any faith in a system that goes as disastrously wrong as this did in such a short time. If they can’t be bothered to give us a reason why they failed so miserably, to spot how poor CC’s finances were, then I see no reason to chance my perspective. |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"A franchising system, not the franchising system'"
It’s pretty clear that, what was proposed, was what happened. Therefore, it was the THE franchising system.
The difference between me and thee now, is that you seem to believe that, in 2005, there was nothing definite. This is despite the RFL and Richard Lewis giving a very detailed account of what it was about, when it would happen, how it would happen and dropping hints as to the inclusion of two new expansion clubs, both of which hadn’t yet played a single game.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"It only 'must' if we agree with your paranoid hypothesis, A perfect example of your circular reasoning. It becomes even more apparent when you the source you are using as evidence explicitly states Lewis also stressed that plans for expansion were unlikely to take place until the current television deal with BSkyB expires at the end of 2008. '"
What’s your point?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"They were due to join in 2005, they chose to delay it by a year. Doesnt quite fit like a glove. '"
That makes little difference. The new clubs are being set up within months of each other, and within months of a report the RFL have released that states the need to expand SL to 14 clubs and, at the same time, states that the heartland areas lack enough SL quality teams to fill those 14 places.
You may regard this as a happy coincidence but I, and many others, do not.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"considering your propensity for simply mis-reading/making up statements i will have to ask for evidence '"
I’ll ignore yet another one of your slurs. I recall reading an article from a link someone on here, or maybe the TIW board, where LS discussed this. I think it was just before, or just after, he bailed out of the club. It may have been on the BBC Sport website, as I’m sure there was a recorded interview as well as a written article. He even mentioned the names of the people who the RFL asked to approach him.
I’ll have a Google when I get time, unless some kind soul who remembers where it is posts it up.
Quote ="SmokeyTA""If we don't believe it is sustainable and we don't believe that enough players will come through to give us 14 clubs, we won't do it," he added. '"
We know that the RFL thought that the heartlands couldn’t provide enough players to a standard that would make competitive clubs for SL. They may, or may not have been right. That’s probably why the RFL thought it better to go with expansion clubs, as they can just recruit a team of antipodeans to make up for the lack of local talent. Heartland clubs don’t have this luxury, or not quite to the same extent anyway – nor should they.
This would have been a good argument to give the new expansion clubs a ring-fenced place. Imo, they knew full well who they wanted and how many clubs they wanted. This doesn’t really change that much, and was probably the RFL’s get out clause, should their new expansion clubs go tits up before 2009, as they clearly didn’t want to fill the extra places with heartland clubs. That would go against everything they have been trying to do since the Super League era started.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Except they didnt, UTC (as they were) were admitted to start in 2005, not 2006, they asked for a delay of one year. '"
It makes no difference. As I have already explained, this process could have been in the making well before 2005. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that Les Catalans were set up to be installed in a licenced SL in 2009. Why you think this makes a difference, I don’t understand.
Aren’t Les Catalans an amalgamation of two French clubs, not just one?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" They also explicitly told us they didnt know how many clubs they would admit in 2009, in 2005, they didnt decide that until 2008. Your time line is off every step of the way '"
I dealt with this matter yesterday, when I pointed out that the RFL would have had to have already gained some sort of initial agreement with BskyB. The main worry, for both parties, would have been that one or both of newly created expansion clubs failed before 2009. Neither party could be sure this wouldn’t happen. We both know that BskyB and the RFL weren’t looking to expand Super league for the benefit of heartland clubs in NL1. This whole process was about expansion; they wouldn’t say so, of course, but do you really think that this isn’t the case?
Therefore, if these expansion clubs were not available at the time of licencing, the league would not be expanded, until they had more expansion clubs in place. They’d already stated that the heartlands couldn’t provide the 14 clubs for expansion anyway. So why would they expand to 14 clubs, when they believe the heartlands cannot sustain 14 clubs?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Other than every actual bit of evidence proving you wrong, its a nice story. '"
Neither of us are in a position to know which one of us is right. You either believe what the RFL tell you, or you don’t.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" I think you will find, when you look back, that the tactic you are describing is the one you are using. This isnt an argument over whether you think there is enough space for Widnes, you clearly do, i dont but that wasnt the point you were addressing. Which was again, there is more potential in Wales than in Widnes. '"
Potential means nothing without the means, determination and ability to use it.
You are ignoring the fact that in South Wales there will be even stiffer competition for players, from local RU clubs, than there is in the heartland RL areas from RL clubs. RU is their national sport and has more money to spend. Most South Walian lads would be more tempted by what RU can offer them, probably even those which may come through the Crusaders’ own youth structure.
Then there’s the North, where no infrastructure for playing the game exists yet. There’s no proper service area or amateur game there. Even if none of this were true, they’d still have to have the right set up to make the most of it.
Widnes, and indeed, the whole of Halton now does have this infrastructure, and a club which is now dedicated to bringing youth through. They also have a first rate infrastructure for bringing them through. This is why we have so many of them in our squad these days, and why they have just had four of it’s young academy players selected for the 2011 England Academy squad for the forthcoming international games against Wales and France.
www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=3392
You must admit that it is impressive to be able to do this from the Championship.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" No they arent, but there are enough clubs in the area to 'pick up the slack' in these areas as the game grows. '"
This depends on the other clubs desire to do so in a meaningful way. It is very unlikely that many Scousers, or people from the Wirral peninsular, would be interested in Warrington unless they lived there. St Helens yes, Warrington, Wigan no.
I know that St Hellens have been active in promoting themselves in the areas of Liverpool which they boarder, particularly in the northern areas. This is why James Graham is now playing for them, who is from that area of Liverpool (maghull). This shows what potential there can be in that area, with a lot of effort. However, I have not heard of any push into South Liverpool, in the areas where Widnes boarder them, or into the Wirral or West Cheshire. These are free from interference from any other local RL clubs and would be more inclined to support Widnes and travel, with their youngsters to play for local amateur clubs, &c.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Of course it is dubious to you, everything which can possibly mean the RFL thought Crusaders were a better bet than Widnes seemed dubious to you. But its irrelevant, the reasons where there, they were valid. '"
It’s not just about Widnes. The way the licence decisions are made, will be of grave concern to every ambitious heartland club, and its fans, below SL.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Whoop di dooo, its not like SL is crying out for small northern towns putting out middling teams in front of mediocre crowds. If thats all they would have offered it simply confirms that Crusaders were the right decision '"
I believe, that if there were no CC or LC at the time of the licence decisions, SL wouldn’t have been expanded to 14 clubs anyway. This was never about them. I just would have liked to have been told this, by the RFL, openly.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" The big name sponsors avoided the game like a plague before hand, so we have lost nothing there. '"
Well, it’s even less likely now!
Quote ="SmokeyTA" They could have put a club in inner mongolia but nobody was willing to fund one, someone in South Wales was, then on the back of that someone in north wales was, and other people in south wales were. Sounds positive to me. '"
Not when they are dealing with a man of Leighton Samuel’s history of running a rugby club. For what he did to the Warriors, he was hated by most in the town they planted the new club too.
There is no reason that they couldn’t have approached someone else, maybe even at Wrexham. It would have even been easier for that club to take them on, as there would have been no baggage from the Bridgend fiasco. It was easy enough to set up the Scorpions fairly quickly. If they had done so, said they will be in SL in 2009, help fund the local RL infrastructure as they did for CC with 7 new amateur clubs along the M4 corridor, plus didn’t force them to have to get to NL1 to make a bid, they may have been in a better financial position and perhaps lasted longer than a season in SL.
I just think they went about the whole thing the wrong way.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Widnes were bust, less than a year old, and it tells you something they needed to offer £500k guarantee, '"
So, the Crusaders are screwed for 2012 then?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" Other than it not being there information to give away yes. Other them likely being sued by leighton Samuels for releasing their opinion on private financial information of a company which belonged to him, and of course there being no real reason to do so. Yes they could have done '"
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It’s difficult to have any faith in a system that goes as disastrously wrong as this did in such a short time. If they can’t be bothered to give us a reason why they failed so miserably, to spot how poor CC’s finances were, then I see no reason to chance my perspective. | |
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| smokey, pepe...................get a room and get it on for gods sake!  | | |
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| Quote ="Pepe"It’s pretty clear that, what was proposed, was what happened. Therefore, it was the THE franchising system. '" what was proposed. There doesnt seem a proposal with any meat on the bones at all.
Quote The difference between me and thee now, is that you seem to believe that, in 2005, there was nothing definite. This is despite the RFL and Richard Lewis giving a very detailed account of what it was about, when it would happen, how it would happen and dropping hints as to the inclusion of two new expansion clubs, both of which hadn’t yet played a single game. '" lets see some detail then from the 2005 release. The things which had been decided, not things preceeded with uncertain adverbs like if, or maybe, no plans. But you decided detaila.
Quote What’s your point?'" well pretty much what i said. That the decision over how many teams were to participate in the franchised league wasnt made until 2008 as Richard Lewis explicitly states, not 2005 as you proposed. Once we get passed that, your time line and theory descends in to bigger nonsense.
Quote That makes little difference. The new clubs are being set up within months of each other, and within months of a report the RFL have released that states the need to expand SL to 14 clubs and, at the same time, states that the heartland areas lack enough SL quality teams to fill those 14 places. '" So what you were sarcastically referring to as 'coincidence' didnt actually happen at all. The reason for it not being a coincidence no longer applies but it is just dismissed. I like your circular reasoning, its funny.
And again, there werent 14 places yet to fill. We know this, we were explicitly told this.
Quote You may regard this as a happy coincidence but I, and many others, do not.
'"
a coincidence that isnt quite a coincidence. If setting them up to enter in 2006 with a three year no relegation clause, and 2009 being the year franchising starts is your coincidence then your coincidence isnt even that. Les Cats were planned to set up in 2005 with a three year no relegation clause. which only takes them up to 2008. Its a very ill fitting glove you have there.
Quote I’ll ignore yet another one of your slurs. I recall reading an article from a link someone on here, or maybe the TIW board, where LS discussed this. I think it was just before, or just after, he bailed out of the club. It may have been on the BBC Sport website, as I’m sure there was a recorded interview as well as a written article. He even mentioned the names of the people who the RFL asked to approach him. '" shouldnt be too difficult to provide me with evidence then should it.
Quote We know that the RFL thought that the heartlands couldn’t provide enough players to a standard that would make competitive clubs for SL. They may, or may not have been right. That’s probably why the RFL thought it better to go with expansion clubs, as they can just recruit a team of antipodeans to make up for the lack of local talent. Heartland clubs don’t have this luxury, or not quite to the same extent anyway – nor should they.
This would have been a good argument to give the new expansion clubs a ring-fenced place. Imo, they knew full well who they wanted and how many clubs they wanted. This doesn’t really change that much, and was probably the RFL’s get out clause, should their new expansion clubs go tits up before 2009, as they clearly didn’t want to fill the extra places with heartland clubs. That would go against everything they have been trying to do since the Super League era started. '" Yes, maybe that it what they felt, in 2009 when they had viewed the franchise bids. They clearly didnt make this decision in 2005. They have explicitly told us so.
and as such your paranoid hypothesis is shown to be false.
Quote It makes no difference. As I have already explained, this process could have been in the making well before 2005. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that Les Catalans were set up to be installed in a licenced SL in 2009. Why you think this makes a difference, I don’t understand.
Aren’t Les Catalans an amalgamation of two French clubs, not just one?'" of course it makes a difference, your contention was that the Les Catalans were set up to enter in 2006 with a three year exemption taking them up to 2009 when the already decided 14 club SL including 3 expansion clubs would begin (which was decided in 2005). This is proved to be nonsense as A) the RFL have told us they didnt know how many clubs would be in SL in 2009 until 2008. B) they have told us no expansion plans would be made until 2008, and C) Les Catalans were due to join in 2005 with a three year exemption taking them to 2008, a year before the licences. Your idea that everything was already decided is proved wrong every step of the way.
Quote I dealt with this matter yesterday, when I pointed out that the RFL would have had to have already gained some sort of initial agreement with BskyB. The main worry, for both parties, would have been that one or both of newly created expansion clubs failed before 2009. Neither party could be sure this wouldn’t happen. We both know that BskyB and the RFL weren’t looking to expand Super league for the benefit of heartland clubs in NL1. This whole process was about expansion; they wouldn’t say so, of course, but do you really think that this isn’t the case?
'" except they have explicitly told us that they hadnt. They have explicitly told us that this decision hadnt been made. But yes if we ignore all actual evidence and invent our own you do make sense.
Quote Therefore, if these expansion clubs were not available at the time of licencing, the league would not be expanded, until they had more expansion clubs in place. They’d already stated that the heartlands couldn’t provide the 14 clubs for expansion anyway. So why would they expand to 14 clubs, when they believe the heartlands cannot sustain 14 clubs?'" exactly. Why would they? they would likely look at the bids, see if there were 14 which were good enough and if there were let them in. If not dont. I.E they hadnt made any decision until they had viewed the bids
Quote Neither of us are in a position to know which one of us is right. You either believe what the RFL tell you, or you don’t. '" no, you either look at the evidence or you make it up. The fact is you are making it up, Thats why you are dismissed as paranoid.
Quote Potential means nothing without the means, determination and ability to use it. '" well yes it does. It is kind of the point of potential. It is unknown whether or not you can fulfil it.
Quote You are ignoring the fact that in South Wales there will be even stiffer competition for players, from local RU clubs, than there is in the heartland RL areas from RL clubs. RU is their national sport and has more money to spend. Most South Walian lads would be more tempted by what RU can offer them, probably even those which may come through the Crusaders’ own youth structure. '" im not ignoring it. I understand it. You still havent put forward any kind of argument that explains why a small town with a low population with plenty of bigger RL clubs in the immediate area has more potential for growth than a large area with a large population, and no RL clubs.
Then there’s the North, where no infrastructure for playing the game exists yet. There’s no proper service area or amateur game there. Even if none of this were true, they’d still have to have the right set up to make the most of it.
Part of the reason of bringing in a welsh club is to get that infrastructure in place
Quote Widnes, and indeed, the whole of Halton now does have this infrastructure, and a club which is now dedicated to bringing youth through. They also have a first rate infrastructure for bringing them through. This is why we have so many of them in our squad these days, and why they have just had four of it’s young academy players selected for the 2011 England Academy squad for the forthcoming international games against Wales and France.'" good for you. Would all have those been missed if it werent for Widnes?
Without the Crusaders there wouldnt be a welsh squad of any note to play them.
Quote www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=3392
You must admit that it is impressive to be able to do this from the Championship.
'" good on them, well done widnes.
Quote This depends on the other clubs desire to do so in a meaningful way. It is very unlikely that many Scousers, or people from the Wirral peninsular, would be interested in Warrington unless they lived there. St Helens yes, Warrington, Wigan no.
'" But they would Widnes for some reason?
Quote I know that St Hellens have been active in promoting themselves in the areas of Liverpool which they boarder, particularly in the northern areas. This is why James Graham is now playing for them, who is from that area of Liverpool (maghull). This shows what potential there can be in that area, with a lot of effort. However, I have not heard of any push into South Liverpool, in the areas where Widnes boarder them, or into the Wirral or West Cheshire. These are free from interference from any other local RL clubs and would be more inclined to support Widnes and travel, with their youngsters to play for local amateur clubs, &c. '" it will happen as the game grows.
Quote It’s not just about Widnes. The way the licence decisions are made, will be of grave concern to every ambitious heartland club, and its fans, below SL.
I believe, that if there were no CC or LC at the time of the licence decisions, SL wouldn’t have been expanded to 14 clubs anyway. This was never about them. I just would have liked to have been told this, by the RFL, openly. '" who cares what you believe, you have shown you are happy to simply making things up. Show some evidence or this is simply put with the rest of your delusions.
Quote Well, it’s even less likely now!
'" yes, cause sponsors really give a about the financial travails of a single RL club.
Quote Not when they are dealing with a man of Leighton Samuel’s history of running a rugby club. For what he did to the Warriors, he was hated by most in the town they planted the new club too.
There is no reason that they couldn’t have approached someone else, maybe even at Wrexham. It would have even been easier for that club to take them on, as there would have been no baggage from the Bridgend fiasco. It was easy enough to set up the Scorpions fairly quickly. If they had done so, said they will be in SL in 2009, help fund the local RL infrastructure as they did for CC with 7 new amateur clubs along the M4 corridor, plus didn’t force them to have to get to NL1 to make a bid, they may have been in a better financial position and perhaps lasted longer than a season in SL. '" neither wrexham nor scorpions existed or had any interest prior to Crusaders. You do realise time is linear dont you>?
Quote So, the Crusaders are screwed for 2012 then? '" Unless they can offer something Widnes couldnt.
Quote We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It’s difficult to have any faith in a system that goes as disastrously wrong as this did in such a short time. If they can’t be bothered to give us a reason why they failed so miserably, to spot how poor CC’s finances were, then I see no reason to chance my perspective.'" yet you have continued to have faith in a system like P+R despite its years of proven failure. Wierd | | |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Rambled on for half a page....'"
Give it a bone mate ffs | | |
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| Quote ="Barry_McKenzie"Give it a bone mate ffs'"
tred to ignore this thread...I blame you for me even looking at it again  | | |
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| Reading this thread it is interesting that the "Flat Cap anti-expansionists" mostly want expansion teams to be given a place in SL because they're expansion teams, that fact being important enough to override all other considerations, but the "Pro-expansion" lobby want expansion teams to have to compete with established clubs on criteira they are clearly disadvantaged by.
Which begs the question "who exactly are the anti-expansionists?"  | | |
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"Reading this thread it is interesting that the "Flat Cap anti-expansionists" mostly want expansion teams to be given a place in SL because they're expansion teams, that fact being important enough to override all other considerations, but the "Pro-expansion" lobby want expansion teams to have to compete with established clubs on criteira they are clearly disadvantaged by.
Which begs the question "who exactly are the anti-expansionists?"
'"
good question BB - I can only assume they are M62 clubs who want to keep it all to themselves - just in the backyards of Yorks & Lancs folk
just a thought,is it better to have TO13 in SL with 5000 + crowds or Leigh,Fev,Widnes etc etc with 5000 + crowds ? what would be best for the game ? | | |
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"
Which begs the question "who exactly are the anti-expansionists?"
'"
Widnes fans? | | | |
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