Quote ="Pepe"Everything the RFL do tends to be vague. It helps with not being pinned down on areas where they say one thing and do another. Hwoever, this statement: [i"The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs and said it was not felt the heartland would be able to sustain that number of Super League clubs.”[/i Seems quite emphatic that they have come to the conclusion of how many clubs, in an expanded league, should be from heartland areas. So, they have pre-judged their own licence process. There’s just no getting away from this obvious fact, Smokey. Ooops! [i“The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs”[/i I think this shows otherwise. '" and this actually showed otherwise. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 459782.stm dated 2008. It also explains that this coincided with the renegotiating of the TV contract with Sky. Im sure you would admit it would be pretty naive for the RFL to make this kind of decision prior to them knowing the size of the TV contract. Quote It is obvious that the whole process of turning Super League from P&R to a licence system began as early as 2004, when Les Catalans were set up, with a view to having a no relegation clause that would take then nicely through to 2009. A year later Leighton Samuel was asked to set up an RL club, which was given a 3 year plan. This would take up to 2008 when the licneces were to be handed out. This document is clearly the blueprint for what was to come for licencing. This seems pretty obvious to me. God knows why you can’t see it. '" I havent disputed it was an aim. Im disputing that A) the decision was made prior to the bids being submitted. and B) the RFL havent been open and honest about their aims. Quote What, like in Wales where they are almost entirely dependant on Aussies? You’d think that the heartlands, with it’s well established service areas and amateur clubs would be much better placed. Unless you are saying they are expanding the player pool by importing them from Australia and NZ?'" no, im saying the player pool isnt only relevant for the first 10 years. It is on-going. And i dont think it is controversial to say that there is more potential for growth in the player pool in Wales than Widnes. Widnes is surrounded by SL clubs. The pathways and the amateur game are fully matured, There isnt going to be a lot more amateur players, or more players being able to be taken from the player pool. Quote No I’m looking at what we actually know the clubs had to put forward in their bids. You are the one only concentrating on one aspect of the bid (that of the benefits of expansion). Taking a holistic view of one area of the bid process is a ridiculous thing to say. Again, I repeat what Starbug has said, ‘what a load of utter bollox’. '" You are desperately ignoring the fact that 'expansion' affects every area of the bid bar the stadium, Which was already covered by the plans they had submitted in the same way as wakefield, cas, Saints, and Salford. Quote Please explain?'" That they were a brand new club in all but name. Quote Again: “The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs”'" again: the document wasnt binding. And again news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 459782.stm Quote Then the bidding criteria is completely worthless. '" No, it isnt, it was used to find out which heartland clubs were best place. Which expansion clubs were best placed, and which expansion clubs were better placed than which heartland clubs. Quote If they are going to ignore it, ‘for the greater good’ they should have said so, and do what I have been arguing they should have done and ring fenced a certain amount of expansion places and let the heartland clubs fight it out between themselves. '" they didnt ignore, they used it as a part of the process, as they consistently said they would Quote If this is the case, whats the point in any other club, from the Championship bidding for a licence?'" because they will pick the one which is best place, not simply the one which 'ticked the most boxes'. If two clubs both do what the rfl ask, there will still be one better than the other. The RFL are helping them, not doing it for them. Quote To me, it would be a deceitful method to use when you are claiming to be running a fair bid procedure.'" its available to all clubs and all clubs were aware of it. Im not sure what you could find deceitful about it. Quote I think it would have been a very good idea to set up a Welsh club and given them one of the extra two places available, provided they made that position clear. No heartland club should be groomed by the RFL in the same way an expansion team should be – including Widnes. They should stand on the strength of their bid at the time, as compared to other heartland clubs. '" no, they should stand on their own merits. Being slightly better than Salford are now isnt a reason in and of itself to be admitted. The club should be admitted because it can contribute. If it cant then it shouldnt. Quote Then this position should be made clear. That is why expansion clubs should not be in the bid process. '" It was made clear. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 556801.stm in 2005.

Quote ="Pepe"Everything the RFL do tends to be vague. It helps with not being pinned down on areas where they say one thing and do another. Hwoever, this statement: [i"The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs and said it was not felt the heartland would be able to sustain that number of Super League clubs.”[/i Seems quite emphatic that they have come to the conclusion of how many clubs, in an expanded league, should be from heartland areas. So, they have pre-judged their own licence process. There’s just no getting away from this obvious fact, Smokey. Ooops! [i“The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs”[/i I think this shows otherwise. '" and this actually showed otherwise. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 459782.stm dated 2008. It also explains that this coincided with the renegotiating of the TV contract with Sky. Im sure you would admit it would be pretty naive for the RFL to make this kind of decision prior to them knowing the size of the TV contract. Quote It is obvious that the whole process of turning Super League from P&R to a licence system began as early as 2004, when Les Catalans were set up, with a view to having a no relegation clause that would take then nicely through to 2009. A year later Leighton Samuel was asked to set up an RL club, which was given a 3 year plan. This would take up to 2008 when the licneces were to be handed out. This document is clearly the blueprint for what was to come for licencing. This seems pretty obvious to me. God knows why you can’t see it. '" I havent disputed it was an aim. Im disputing that A) the decision was made prior to the bids being submitted. and B) the RFL havent been open and honest about their aims. Quote What, like in Wales where they are almost entirely dependant on Aussies? You’d think that the heartlands, with it’s well established service areas and amateur clubs would be much better placed. Unless you are saying they are expanding the player pool by importing them from Australia and NZ?'" no, im saying the player pool isnt only relevant for the first 10 years. It is on-going. And i dont think it is controversial to say that there is more potential for growth in the player pool in Wales than Widnes. Widnes is surrounded by SL clubs. The pathways and the amateur game are fully matured, There isnt going to be a lot more amateur players, or more players being able to be taken from the player pool. Quote No I’m looking at what we actually know the clubs had to put forward in their bids. You are the one only concentrating on one aspect of the bid (that of the benefits of expansion). Taking a holistic view of one area of the bid process is a ridiculous thing to say. Again, I repeat what Starbug has said, ‘what a load of utter bollox’. '" You are desperately ignoring the fact that 'expansion' affects every area of the bid bar the stadium, Which was already covered by the plans they had submitted in the same way as wakefield, cas, Saints, and Salford. Quote Please explain?'" That they were a brand new club in all but name. Quote Again: “The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs”'" again: the document wasnt binding. And again news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 459782.stm Quote Then the bidding criteria is completely worthless. '" No, it isnt, it was used to find out which heartland clubs were best place. Which expansion clubs were best placed, and which expansion clubs were better placed than which heartland clubs. Quote If they are going to ignore it, ‘for the greater good’ they should have said so, and do what I have been arguing they should have done and ring fenced a certain amount of expansion places and let the heartland clubs fight it out between themselves. '" they didnt ignore, they used it as a part of the process, as they consistently said they would Quote If this is the case, whats the point in any other club, from the Championship bidding for a licence?'" because they will pick the one which is best place, not simply the one which 'ticked the most boxes'. If two clubs both do what the rfl ask, there will still be one better than the other. The RFL are helping them, not doing it for them. Quote To me, it would be a deceitful method to use when you are claiming to be running a fair bid procedure.'" its available to all clubs and all clubs were aware of it. Im not sure what you could find deceitful about it. Quote I think it would have been a very good idea to set up a Welsh club and given them one of the extra two places available, provided they made that position clear. No heartland club should be groomed by the RFL in the same way an expansion team should be – including Widnes. They should stand on the strength of their bid at the time, as compared to other heartland clubs. '" no, they should stand on their own merits. Being slightly better than Salford are now isnt a reason in and of itself to be admitted. The club should be admitted because it can contribute. If it cant then it shouldnt. Quote Then this position should be made clear. That is why expansion clubs should not be in the bid process. '" It was made clear. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 556801.stm in 2005.

Transparency:

If only the RFL had some sort of simple QnA or [url=http://therfl.co.uk/licensing/licensing_faqsFAQ sheet[/url on the licence process, including how decisions will be reached this year.

You know, something that said, oh I don't now …

We know all that TB, they just haven't seen it themselves. Also there is nothing transparent about points a. and c. on your list. It is purely a decision made by the RFL board (yeh right) and SKY

So once more we return to "The RFL should be more transparent" … "it is" … "No, what I mean by 'more transparent' is only tell us things we want to hear".

No, what we mean is "be more transparent". For example SL criteria might be available but nobody knows how the RFL scored each bid - only the overall grade.

You want the RFL to reveal commercially sensitive information, around financial stability etc, relating to other separate limited companies?

Ain't never going to happen: there's more chance of a consensus on RLFans in support of a new club playing top flight professional rugby.

Quote ="tb"You want the RFL to reveal commercially sensitive information, around financial stability etc, relating to other separate limited companies?'" If you do want to know anyway... www.companieshouse.gov.uk Although it will cost you, and it will only show what is already a matter of public record. Stop expecting the RFL to spoon feed you and do your own research if you're that interested.

Quote ="tb"You want the RFL to reveal commercially sensitive information, around financial stability etc, relating to other separate limited companies?'" If you do want to know anyway... www.companieshouse.gov.uk Although it will cost you, and it will only show what is already a matter of public record. Stop expecting the RFL to spoon feed you and do your own research if you're that interested.

As pointed out, the info is available anyway and I fail to see how anybody can capitalise on it anyway.

Stability is mostly based on historic data rather than current data. I doubt that Huddersfield's balance sheet from two years ago is going to be "sensitive".

But you arent asking for Huddersfields balance sheet from 2 years ago, you are asking for the RFL to make public their opinion on the Huddersfield balance sheet. If you cant work out how that may be something the clubs, for very obvious reasons, may not want releasing then there is no helping you.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" and this actually showed otherwise. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 459782.stm dated 2008. It also explains that this coincided with the renegotiating of the TV contract with Sky. Im sure you would admit it would be pretty naive for the RFL to make this kind of decision prior to them knowing the size of the TV contract.'" It doesn’t change the fact that the RFL had already decided that they needed to expand SL to 14 clubs in 2005, and that they felt that there were only so many heartland clubs which would be able to be part of it, and then write it up in as official policy. Low and behold, we now have exactly that. Who was doing the speculating, because it wasn’t the RFL? They were perfectly clear about what they wanted in 2005. Perhaps it was naive, or perhaps they had already had the go ahead as far back as 2005, from Sky, to begin planning for a 14 club SL for 2009. It is not an unusual thing for businesses to have 5 and 10 year plans and have agreements in place for them. Given the timing of the setting up of two of the expansion clubs, it seems likely. Richard Lewis actually seems very confident it would happen, in that 2005 link you posted. It tends to back up exactly what I have been saying; that they’d planned it in 2005, if not even earlier, and confidently announced that it would happen in 2009 as far back as that 2005 article. It is clearly going much further than simply calling it a stated aim. Quote ="SmokeyTA" I havent disputed it was an aim. Im disputing that A) the decision was made prior to the bids being submitted. and B) the RFL havent been open and honest about their aims.'" We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one Quote ="SmokeyTA" no, im saying the player pool isnt only relevant for the first 10 years. It is on-going. And i dont think it is controversial to say that there is more potential for growth in the player pool in Wales than Widnes. '" I disagree. It depends on many factors. Interest in the game, academy and quality of the coaching set up, &c. Being in a heartland area, where there are lots of players that may never be given a chance by their local SL clubs, may be given a chance by the new heartland club, and prove to be a great success. It’s not like it hasn’t happened before. I can think of several brilliant players who played for my club under such circumstances, never mind the the many other heartland clubs who missed out. The heartland club can provide a nearby option, that an expansion club cannot. Thus, many players are less likely to slip though the net and disappear forever. Quote ="SmokeyTA"Widnes is surrounded by SL clubs. The pathways and the amateur game are fully matured, There isnt going to be a lot more amateur players, or more players being able to be taken from the player pool.'" I take that geography wasn’t your strongest subject? Which pro RL club is directly South of Widnes? Which pro RL club is directly West of Widnes? Our player pathways are being improved upon all the time, by the club and Halton Borough Council. They in the schools all over Halton, and the Valhalla Foundation is taking off, with school kids from all over the borough playing each other in a competition which culminates in a final at a Widnes game in the Stobart Stadium Halton. Widnes’ under 16’s academy went unbeaten against all SL opposition, and our 18’s dominated the elite Super League group they were in – and that is without actually being in Super League! The club are also targeting South Liverpool and the Wirral, and even tying up with local R.U. clubs there. We have already produced plenty of rugby talent from our lowly position – including a recent England international. That was before the extra concentration and effort, which is now being put into the clubs’ youth structure and player pathways by the new Chairman and his team. Quote ="SmokeyTA" You are desperately ignoring the fact that 'expansion' affects every area of the bid bar the stadium, Which was already covered by the plans they had submitted in the same way as wakefield, cas, Saints, and Salford.'" Errr…really? How does that work then? Why is it different for and expansion club in the criteria areas marked, Commercial and Marketing? Facilities? Finance? Governance and Business Management? Playing Strength and Player Performance Strategy? I take it that you mean the RFL just ignore all these, when scrutinizing expansion clubs? To my mind, you either have these in place, and in a position of strength, or you don’t. Whether you are judging a heartland club or an expansion club, it shouldn’t make any difference. The quality of that clubs bid must depend on these vital areas. Quote ="SmokeyTA" That they were a brand new club in all but name. '" They’re still two very, very different clubs. Quote ="SmokeyTA" again: the document wasnt binding. And again '" It says there was some speculation. It didn’t say by whom, or why. Therefore, totally meaningless, when you look at the bullishness and confidence shown by the RFL, that it would happen as far back as 2005 in the last link you provided - whether it be binding or not! Quote ="SmokeyTA" No, it isnt, it was used to find out which heartland clubs were best place. Which expansion clubs were best placed, and which expansion clubs were better placed than which heartland clubs.they didnt ignore, they used it as a part of the process, as they consistently said they would '" So why did they get it so catastrophically wrong? Quote ="SmokeyTA" no, they should stand on their own merits. Being slightly better than Salford are now isnt a reason in and of itself to be admitted. The club should be admitted because it can contribute. If it cant then it shouldnt.'" So what did the Celtic Crusader contribute to Super League, in their brief and embarrassingly, disastrous period there? Quote ="SmokeyTA" It was made clear.'" What was made clear? That a new expansion club might win a licence in 2009? BBC Sport: [i‘Potential new clubs are likely to come from London, Wales or France.’[/i That is hardly an emphatic statement of intent to place the Celtic Crusaders in Super League. It is merely stating that [i‘potential new clubs may come from London, Wales or France’[/i. It doesn’t state that any of these clubs will have a priority position in Super League, which is what I am saying should have happened. This, unlike the 2005 RFL document about expansion, with a limited amount of heartland clubs, and subsequent assertions from Richard Lewis that it was going to happen, is clearly in the form of a stated aim. In fact, they clearly state that it will merely “be considered”. Again, this is not the clarification I think we should have got.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" and this actually showed otherwise. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 459782.stm dated 2008. It also explains that this coincided with the renegotiating of the TV contract with Sky. Im sure you would admit it would be pretty naive for the RFL to make this kind of decision prior to them knowing the size of the TV contract.'" It doesn’t change the fact that the RFL had already decided that they needed to expand SL to 14 clubs in 2005, and that they felt that there were only so many heartland clubs which would be able to be part of it, and then write it up in as official policy. Low and behold, we now have exactly that. Who was doing the speculating, because it wasn’t the RFL? They were perfectly clear about what they wanted in 2005. Perhaps it was naive, or perhaps they had already had the go ahead as far back as 2005, from Sky, to begin planning for a 14 club SL for 2009. It is not an unusual thing for businesses to have 5 and 10 year plans and have agreements in place for them. Given the timing of the setting up of two of the expansion clubs, it seems likely. Richard Lewis actually seems very confident it would happen, in that 2005 link you posted. It tends to back up exactly what I have been saying; that they’d planned it in 2005, if not even earlier, and confidently announced that it would happen in 2009 as far back as that 2005 article. It is clearly going much further than simply calling it a stated aim. Quote ="SmokeyTA" I havent disputed it was an aim. Im disputing that A) the decision was made prior to the bids being submitted. and B) the RFL havent been open and honest about their aims.'" We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one Quote ="SmokeyTA" no, im saying the player pool isnt only relevant for the first 10 years. It is on-going. And i dont think it is controversial to say that there is more potential for growth in the player pool in Wales than Widnes. '" I disagree. It depends on many factors. Interest in the game, academy and quality of the coaching set up, &c. Being in a heartland area, where there are lots of players that may never be given a chance by their local SL clubs, may be given a chance by the new heartland club, and prove to be a great success. It’s not like it hasn’t happened before. I can think of several brilliant players who played for my club under such circumstances, never mind the the many other heartland clubs who missed out. The heartland club can provide a nearby option, that an expansion club cannot. Thus, many players are less likely to slip though the net and disappear forever. Quote ="SmokeyTA"Widnes is surrounded by SL clubs. The pathways and the amateur game are fully matured, There isnt going to be a lot more amateur players, or more players being able to be taken from the player pool.'" I take that geography wasn’t your strongest subject? Which pro RL club is directly South of Widnes? Which pro RL club is directly West of Widnes? Our player pathways are being improved upon all the time, by the club and Halton Borough Council. They in the schools all over Halton, and the Valhalla Foundation is taking off, with school kids from all over the borough playing each other in a competition which culminates in a final at a Widnes game in the Stobart Stadium Halton. Widnes’ under 16’s academy went unbeaten against all SL opposition, and our 18’s dominated the elite Super League group they were in – and that is without actually being in Super League! The club are also targeting South Liverpool and the Wirral, and even tying up with local R.U. clubs there. We have already produced plenty of rugby talent from our lowly position – including a recent England international. That was before the extra concentration and effort, which is now being put into the clubs’ youth structure and player pathways by the new Chairman and his team. Quote ="SmokeyTA" You are desperately ignoring the fact that 'expansion' affects every area of the bid bar the stadium, Which was already covered by the plans they had submitted in the same way as wakefield, cas, Saints, and Salford.'" Errr…really? How does that work then? Why is it different for and expansion club in the criteria areas marked, Commercial and Marketing? Facilities? Finance? Governance and Business Management? Playing Strength and Player Performance Strategy? I take it that you mean the RFL just ignore all these, when scrutinizing expansion clubs? To my mind, you either have these in place, and in a position of strength, or you don’t. Whether you are judging a heartland club or an expansion club, it shouldn’t make any difference. The quality of that clubs bid must depend on these vital areas. Quote ="SmokeyTA" That they were a brand new club in all but name. '" They’re still two very, very different clubs. Quote ="SmokeyTA" again: the document wasnt binding. And again '" It says there was some speculation. It didn’t say by whom, or why. Therefore, totally meaningless, when you look at the bullishness and confidence shown by the RFL, that it would happen as far back as 2005 in the last link you provided - whether it be binding or not! Quote ="SmokeyTA" No, it isnt, it was used to find out which heartland clubs were best place. Which expansion clubs were best placed, and which expansion clubs were better placed than which heartland clubs.they didnt ignore, they used it as a part of the process, as they consistently said they would '" So why did they get it so catastrophically wrong? Quote ="SmokeyTA" no, they should stand on their own merits. Being slightly better than Salford are now isnt a reason in and of itself to be admitted. The club should be admitted because it can contribute. If it cant then it shouldnt.'" So what did the Celtic Crusader contribute to Super League, in their brief and embarrassingly, disastrous period there? Quote ="SmokeyTA" It was made clear.'" What was made clear? That a new expansion club might win a licence in 2009? BBC Sport: [i‘Potential new clubs are likely to come from London, Wales or France.’[/i That is hardly an emphatic statement of intent to place the Celtic Crusaders in Super League. It is merely stating that [i‘potential new clubs may come from London, Wales or France’[/i. It doesn’t state that any of these clubs will have a priority position in Super League, which is what I am saying should have happened. This, unlike the 2005 RFL document about expansion, with a limited amount of heartland clubs, and subsequent assertions from Richard Lewis that it was going to happen, is clearly in the form of a stated aim. In fact, they clearly state that it will merely “be considered”. Again, this is not the clarification I think we should have got.

I have no doubt the aimed to have a 14 team SL with at least 2 expansion clubs in, they have pretty much said as much. I am simply explaining that they hadnt decided that they were going to do.


Seriously? you think there is a vast amount of players in Widnes that arent playing RL because there isnt an SL club in Widnes? or that there are loads of youngsters ignored by Widnes, Sts, Wire, Wigan?


what a ridiculous argument.

and there will be more with Widnes in SL because.........

Compare this to the explosion in the welsh amateur game.


you are again confusing the tick box criteria, and the subjective analysis done later.

Commercial and Marketing?

Facilities?

Finance?

Governance and Business Management?

Yes, an expansion club will be different in all these areas than a heartland club.

they dont need to they werent part of the subjective analysis, stop making the same rookie mistake of confusing the subjective criteria used to choose which clubs went in to SL from the C group and the tick box criteria used to group clubs

then we would never, ever expand, It should be taken as a given that a heartland club should be in a stronger position in all those areas than an expansion club. they have had nigh on a hundred years to get there. If we dont push the expansion clubs to accelerate their growth then we will be in the same position 100 years from now.


yes they are, i didnt say they were the same club, simply in a similar position.


So the RFL made aims, openly and honestly, they followed through on those aims. Yet here you are arguing they werent transparent?

So why did they get it so catastrophically wrong?

A welsh aspect, a growing club, a pathway for welsh players.

What did Leigh contribute to SL in their brief and embarrassingly disastrous period there?

because you have put here, you have made up. Celtic werent given priority. They were considered. The RFL/SL document didnt say they would limit the heartland clubs, simply that the RFL and SL didnt feel the heartland player pool couldnt support 14 teams.

What else, which you have any evidence whatsoever of actually happening, did you want them to clarify for you?

I thought the RFL weren't scrutinising the accounts, they got a third party in to do that. And don't auditors pass comment on the balance sheet and the rest of the books of every limited company/Plc in the published accounts anyway?

You cannot know that for sure, any more than I do.

Both of us can only speculate. I believe the whole process was a goer from the moment they released their 2005 document.



Of course.

There’s only so many places that a club has available for youth development and, I’m sure, that many are overlooked.

The bigger presence a club has in it’s town, via being in the top flight, the more people will be interested in the sport, thus the more youngsters want to play the game. Is it not the primary reason for placing expansion clubs in Super League?



You said that Widnes was ‘surrounded by SL clubs’.

It is not. Answer the questions, instead of avoiding them.


Because the clubs’ new ethos and raison d'être is based on the production of youngsters to the first team in a way that several other clubs in SL, are not. The club has shown it can produce quality players anyway, but they are now expanding the search right across the borough and beyond and crating new pathways for youngsters in areas that they didn’t exist before. We now have the kind money and the infrastructure to do this. Some clubs in SL don’t and won't do this to the same degree, imo.




Which is great, and a very good reason for putting them in Super League, but nowhere near enough, on it’s own to justify them being put into SL via the bid process.

Let me know when it produces players that will be ever-present members of the Crusaders and a player capable of getting in the England squad. Yes, I know they’d be heading for the Welsh squad, but you get Championship players in there too. So I mean comparable with a player who could be regarded as England standard.




I’m not confusing anything. These are areas all clubs need to be rigorously scrutinized on, regardless of where it is situated, as it actually shows whether, or not, it is capable of staying in business for the period of it’s licence.

You can’t just say it’s all about bringing Welsh players through. If the club cannot stay solvent, it cannot give them a proper pathway to the sport.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" Yes, an expansion club will be different in all these areas than a heartland club.'"

Which is why there’s little point in trying to judge them on exactly the same criteria.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" they dont need to they werent part of the subjective analysis, stop making the same rookie mistake of confusing the subjective criteria used to choose which clubs went in to SL from the C group and the tick box criteria used to group clubs'"

So, you’re saying that, once they got past the grading, they looked at who was in the C Grade group and said, we’ll have them, them and them and leave the rest where they are, regardless of whether or not they were actually suitable and capable of staying solvent in Super League?

Quote ="SmokeyTA" then we would never, ever expand, It should be taken as a given that a heartland club should be in a stronger position in all those areas than an expansion club. they have had nigh on a hundred years to get there. If we dont push the expansion clubs to accelerate their growth then we will be in the same position 100 years from now.'"

Yes we can expand. I’ve already told you how I think it should be done. I agree that times have changed and it is important to create a ‘national footprint’.

Simply saying those clubs who have been around for 100 years and are in the Championship, means they can never be a force again, is just wrong. Success is often cyclical in sport. They can be up one decade and down the next. It all depends on many factors. My club has been very successful over the last 100 years, thank you very much!

One thing is for sure, the way the RFL has managed expansion, most of these precious new clubs, they will be lucky to see out the next 10 years, never mind 100.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" So the RFL made aims, openly and honestly, they followed through on those aims. Yet here you are arguing they werent transparent? '"

Because they tried to pretend that they were running a stringent and fair bidding process in order to bring this about.

IMO, they didn’t.

What this shows is they knew what they wanted to do, and which clubs would be in SL, as far back as 2005. The licence bid process was nothing more than a sham, in order to hoodwink those clubs in the Championship into backing a licence system. If they had simply said that an extra expansion club would be included, in the form of the Celtic Crusaders, and made a strong case for them, it may have been accepted anyway. At least the Championship clubs would have known where they stand.

Quote ="pepe" So why did they get it so catastrophically wrong?'"

Still waiting for an answer on this?

Quote ="pepe"So what did the Celtic Crusader contribute to Super League, in their brief and embarrassingly, disastrous period there? '"

Quote ="SmokeyTA" A welsh aspect, '"

Great, but not enough without being able to stay solvent in Super League. At the time we were sold a South Wales aspect. Now we have a different club 150 miles to the North. This is not what was offered. This was lost because the RFL didn’t ensure they were capable of surviving,

Quote ="SmokeyTA" a growing club, '"

They’re dead. They don’t exist in the form they presented themselves at the bid process, anymore.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" a pathway for welsh players'"

Not anymore, but the new club might.

I seriously hope they do. But the jury is still out.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" because you have put here, you have made up. Celtic werent given priority. They were considered. The RFL/SL document didnt say they would limit the heartland clubs, simply that the RFL and SL didnt feel the heartland player pool couldnt support 14 teams. '"

Which, anyway you care to look at it, pre-judges the bid process.

Quote ="SmokeyTA" What else, which you have any evidence whatsoever of actually happening, did you want them to clarify for you? '"

I wouldn’t mind knowing how the RFL, regarded the Celtic Crusaders as financially viable. What we know now shows a complete lack of due diligence on their behalf, which leads me to believe that they couldn’t give a for the criteria. They wanted them in, regardless.

That’s not how they tried to purvey the situation to the RL world, imo.

KPMG did an audit, and the rfl made a decision on the information passed to them by KPMG

Well the RFL have told us so. They told us in 2005 what they aimed to do, and in 2008 what they have managed to do. If you want to speculate on the basis of 0 evidence that something different that is your prerogative. But thats why its generally dismissed as paranoid rantings.


do you believe there is as many potential players in the small area of Widnes missed by the clubs around them as there is in the whole of Wales?


i apologise, there may be degrees of direction which dont immediately hit another pro RL club. Unless of course we remember the world is an oblate spheroid and every direction simply leads back to the same point, but surely we arent being that ridiculous are we? Surely we understand the term 'surrounded' was used to say there are a lot in the immediate area, rather than there is one in every direction dont we?

This is a good thing, you certainly wont find me arguing against it. But it is something all clubs should be doing. The Crusaders are doing something only Crusaders can do.



But it wasnt on its own, simply a part of an overall judgement. Bar Widnes (who lets not forget had the unfortunately timed financial issues) the attendances and stadia (currently in use) werent vastly different.

It will do. Give it time. It doesnt have the amateur game the heartlands do, that is still being built.


but they arent the only ones.

And it should stay solvent. Im not defending some of the things which have happened, simply that we are better where we are now, than had crusaders been left out. The idea that we would be better leaving them in the championships is nonsense.


All clubs were judged on the same criteria, however some criteria was a much bigger part of some bids than others. This shouldnt be confused with the criteria which was used to group them

Yes, no



Good

I havent said that. However im not sure that a fair few of the clubs who have been successful in a semi-pro game, could again compete in the pro game.

Catalans are doing pretty well. Quins do need to improve, and last season Crusaders showed a lot of encouraging signs.

They did, just because you disagree with some of the things they were judged on and the weighting applied to those things, doesnt mean it was unfair or wasnt stringent.



i cant argue against it, i disagree with your premise.
Its not the RFLs job to do so.

Like Widnes a matter of months prior to the bids?

Like Widnes then?

Then we have no need to pre-judge it do we!



No, it doesnt.

Which im sure you can understand that a fair amount of companies wouldnt want someones opinion of their financial position released, especially someone in authority.

It's not embarassing being beaten by a better team or teams in any sport - if you are bottom of a league then it's for a reason - you simply weren't good enough at that level,that's all.....
it's amazing,when you think back that you did actually make a profit with such small crowds ! didn't you have the smallest average attendance in 2005 ?
Does the club still make a profit in the Championship ?

Absolutely not, I think Salford and London both had lower averages

The usual suspects eh?

according to Wikipedia on the Leigh Centurions page it reads :

"Leigh's Super League season of 2005, however, proved a disaster and the club were relegated back to National League One after winning just two games. That season Leigh fans were criticised for the poor support after only gaining an average of 3,199 the lowest in Super League that season, just behind London who gained an average of 3,251."

someone's telling porkies...must be Wikipedia !

Yeah, wiki is wrong. Leigh's average was around 4700 I think.

EDIT: On RLFANS Statistics Leigh's average for 2005 is quoted as 4736. Which as stated wasn't the lowest at all.

sounds a lot better than 3199 - what percentage of that 4736 was travelling fans do you think ?

You can check for yourself by following [url=http://www.slstats.org/this link[/url which also appears under the sub-heading 'Statistics' towards the top right of this very page.

Incidentally, the incorrect attendance figures have now been removed from the Wikipedia page

brilliant,thanks for the info

The link you provided:
[urlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/4556801.stm[/url


The RFL, and Richard Lewis in particular, are clearly announcing that licencing will be going ahead in 2009, when the current (at that time, 2005) television deal with BSkyB expires at the end of 2008. This isn’t suggesting that they are merely considering moving to a licence system, but they’re announcing this plan as a fait accompli. The plan had been discussed with all the clubs and the go-ahead given, with definite time-lines, leading to it happening in 2009 and after the licence process being gone through in 2008.

There is no mention of uncertainly about a deal being reached with BSkyB for this and, as such, this would suggest that some sort of agreement had been made with them already.

The article even mentions that a club, in based Bridgend, will be considered. They hadn’t even played a game by then!

After reading that article, it is far from being paranoid to suggest the whole process and outcome was decided in 2005, if not before.


I believe that we can dramatically increase the number and quality of players coming through the system from the Widnes area. Given that the Club is now also developing young players across all the schools in the entire borough of halton, and developing links on across our boarders to the South and West, where there is no competition from professional RL or RU, Yes.

Wales, due to its strong love RU, is not a free and unfettered area. There will be a lot of competition for the best young athletes, particularly in the South. They may even lose the young players they produce themselves to RU. I would hope that the RFL now set up a strong amateur base in the North, where there would be much less competition from other pro sports clubs.

A lot will depend on the effort made by the two clubs, and the coaching and academy set-ups. This is why a club needs to be financially viable. It is a very costly and time-consuming business trying to bring your own youth through, and with no guarantee of success. This is why many clubs choose the easy option of bringing in ready-made players from outside their areas.


I actually LOL’d when I reads this. How on earth can you be surrounded on only two sides?

This sort of thing sums you up.

However, it is a very important point. We are not surrounded on two sides; this means that we have very little, or no, competition for both fans and young players from other Super league clubs. This puts us in an, almost, unique and advantageous position.

This is why I challenged you on it.



I’m concentrating on the club that made the bid, and that wasn’t in Wrexham. Therefore, bringing in their ground as a defence for the Celtic Crusaders, is meaningless.

This ‘overall judgement’ is what is confusing me. I cannot, for the life of me, see what on earth they had to offer, other than expansion – when compared to some of the clubs they rejected. We now know that it is very likely that they must have already been heading for financial meltdown, from their attempt to meet their end of the bargain and achieve promotion to NL1 and also look to be impressive there too, even as their bid was made.

I agree that the company now running the Widnes Vikings is completely different but, unlike the the Celtic Crusaders/Crusaders, they play in the same stadium, in the same town, in the same colours and with the same fans. It is still exactly the same club. The Crusaders are not.


I agree with what you say about the W/Crusaders. They looked much better right from the start from the shambles of a club the Celtic Crusaders were. They now have a good ground and a better support base. I even thought their playing kit and new look emblem looked great. This is the club they could have been from the start, if the RFL had done as I had suggested.

Now that they will have a clean financial bill of health, it is time for the RFL to come clean and tell us all that they will have a ring-fenced place in Super League, along with the Harlequins and les Catalans.




The problem is, is they have been in a constant state of rebuilding since they entered SL. As a result, it will take much longer. I admit it would be unfair to expect instant results, and that they could never have produced many quality players within the 3 year licence period they were given. Given the poor youth set up they inherited from the Celtic Crusaders, it is hardly surprising. I’m not sure what else they have in place, to recruit young players from their local area, but the setting up of the Scorpions was a step in the right direction. They probably have the first real feeder club in British RL.


Yes, I found it strange that some clubs were allowed to have promises, in the form of computer generated stadium images, considered as actual substance, while other clubs already had them in place and they were ignored. Completely baffling. I could see that most of these clubs did have other redeeming areas that surround their clubs but, what Celtic had to offer other than expansion, with all its ambiguous possibilities, I could not see or understand.


I’m not arguing that the Crusaders should have been left in the Championship. Seeing how that league has deteriorated, since the licence era begun, it is nearly impossible for any club to grow there now, imo.


I think, with the salary cap, it should be easier for smaller clubs to compete. I’m not sure that I entirely agree with the salary cap, but it has been an ever present since the Super league era.


But, unless the RFL quantify this, it will always look like they lack transparency.



Well, no wonder many question the integrity of the bid process. Can you provide a link that confirms that the RFL have stated, once they have found out who the C grades were, they will just pick the clubs they feel like picking, regardless of its merits (as represented by the bid process)?





Then, as the Celtic Crusaders only lasted half a season before requiring financial assistance (in the form of an RFL financial team), does that not cast doubt as to the rigour and, to a certain extent, the integrity of the licence process under the RFL?


When they are running a, supposedly, ‘Stringent’ licence process it is certainly their duty to ensure that the clubs they grant a licence to are financially fit for purpose.



The company running Widnes is new but, as explained earlier, the club itself isn’t. Anymore than when it changed from a members club to a PLC.



I’m sure they could give us an explination without revealing too much. Anyway, that company no longer exists, so why would it matter anymore?