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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Perhaps he wasnt in this magical spot and the video evidence which contradicts him is better evidence.'"
Where was he stood? Oh yes, in perfect line with the trajectory of the ball and the left upright. You couldn't possibly have a better view to judge it. |
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| Quote ="Fully"Plots aren't wrong - I can assure you. I followed it through double and triple checking to make sure it is right.
Your plot of the yellow dot is actually wrong. When it's kicked it's in line with the Foxy Bingo logo and next bit is near the gentleman above, as shown here.
Point A
Point B
At no stage does it go through the marker you've put down (which is the gap between the logo and the F).
With the red line, I haven't accounted for the rebound off the window. Still that's irrelevant. You can just assume it hits the window in line with the yellow X.
I'd love to post lots of pictures for you but I'm going out to the football at 4:30pm. Funnily enough I'm going to the Galpharm but will gladly take a picture behind the sticks if this helps you?'"
So basically FA is posting inaccurate (wrong) evidence? |
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| Quote ="Fully"Plots aren't wrong - I can assure you. I followed it through double and triple checking to make sure it is right.
Your plot of the yellow dot is actually wrong. '"
I didn't add the yellow ball - it is just a copy of the OP's screen grab - I didn't change anything. The yellow ball I added was only the one on the glass that it hit.
I understand you think you're right, but as a ball can't weave around like that, then as a matter of common sense, something is plainly wrong.
Quote ="Fully" I'd love to post lots of pictures for you but I'm going out to the football at 4:30pm. Funnily enough I'm going to the Galpharm but will gladly take a picture behind the sticks if this helps you?'"
I think what we could use is some image or measurement or something which shows the distance from the dead ball line to the glass screens, dunno if there's any way you can do that? |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I didn't add the yellow ball - it is just a copy of the OP's screen grab - I didn't change anything. The yellow ball I added was only the one on the glass that it hit.
I understand you think you're right, but as a ball can't weave around like that, then as a matter of common sense, something is plainly wrong.
I think what we could use is some image or measurement or something which shows the distance from the dead ball line to the glass screens, dunno if there's any way you can do that?'"
Probably not as I'm in the wrong stand.
If you think I'm wrong plot the ball tonight with your tech. But I've only altered it's trajectory once, and that's - as I've pointed out - is when it swerves slightly to the left hence the jolt. As I was doing it on paint, this change probably isn't the smoothest but it definitely does and both angles show it clear as day. I find it really surprising that you can't seem to see it. The rest just goes up and falls behind with gravity as normal, just on a different route to the one you think. |
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| Quote ="The Yellow Giraffe"So basically FA is posting inaccurate (wrong) evidence?'"
Er, so no. |
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| Quote ="The Yellow Giraffe"How long are you going to carry on bombarding us with your amateurish Paint creations before you give up and go away?
Your posts seem to contain a lot of words and phrases such as "approximate," "roughly" and "not entirely accurate."
It's hardly scientific is it? You're making yourself look very silly now.'"
Personally, I'm quite enjoying it. It's our game's Russian linesman.  |
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"Personally, I'm quite enjoying it. It's our game's Russian linesman.
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Haha. I think the reaction on the whole has been farcical. It was nothing more than a 50/50 call that went the way of Saints. No conspiracy, bias, hidden agenda.
My opinion of Huddersfield as a club has plummeted in the last couple of days. Their behaviour has been embarrassing.
Having said all of that, you are right, it is quite entertaining! |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
I understand you think you're right, but as a ball can't weave around like that, then as a matter of common sense, something is plainly wrong.
'"
Whilst I have no desire to get drawn into the "it was a drop goal" "no it wasn't" war of attrition currently occurring :-
Due to the nature of a rugby ball, slight S shape paths are more than possible, especially when the ball isn't kicked cleanly (and travelling end over end) - it is dependent on the way the air moves around the ball. In fact double S paths are even possible (but more than rare) if hit in the correct way.
I could post the background mathematics for this ... But I'm not going to. S shape paths are possible with a football (and becoming more and more common as free kicks become more and more technical) |
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MS: Is that what you're referring to?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect
I did think of angular momentum in first instance too when explaining the science bit but thought it would possibly make me look thick so refrained. |
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MS: Is that what you're referring to?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect
I did think of angular momentum in first instance too when explaining the science bit but thought it would possibly make me look thick so refrained. | |
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| Quote ="The Yellow Giraffe"The point remains, it looks shoddy, amateurish and desperate.'"
like the ladies on a night out in St Helens  |
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| Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"Whilst I have no desire to get drawn into the "it was a drop goal" "no it wasn't" war of attrition currently occurring :-
Due to the nature of a rugby ball, slight S shape paths are more than possible, especially when the ball isn't kicked cleanly (and travelling end over end) - it is dependent on the way the air moves around the ball. In fact double S paths are even possible (but more than rare) if hit in the correct way.
I could post the background mathematics for this ... But I'm not going to. S shape paths are possible with a football (and becoming more and more common as free kicks become more and more technical)'"
But the S shape we are looking at here which would be necessary wouldn’t be slight, it would be pretty pronounced.
It would be (from Brough’s POV)the ball drifting from left to right, then making a pretty sharp right to left, then taking another pretty sharp turn and a more pronounced drift left to right. This would have also needed to happen at exactly the right time so that the ball curved over the top of the post then back in again after the post. |
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| Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"Whilst I have no desire to get drawn into the "it was a drop goal" "no it wasn't" war of attrition currently occurring :-
Due to the nature of a rugby ball, slight S shape paths are more than possible, especially when the ball isn't kicked cleanly (and travelling end over end) - it is dependent on the way the air moves around the ball. In fact double S paths are even possible (but more than rare) if hit in the correct way.
I could post the background mathematics for this ... But I'm not going to. S shape paths are possible with a football (and becoming more and more common as free kicks become more and more technical)'"
Simply though in this case the ball didn't move around to any appreciable extent (or, based on watching repeated video from different positions, at all) whether theoretically things are possible or not. In practice no such thing occurred. The ball was not seen to take any S bends or perform any unorthodox manoeuvres.
Also where is any war, or any attrition? It often baffles me why some people (usually ones not taking part in a discussion) are uncomfortable with discussion. Is there something wrong with discussion? Is it some alien concept? If you're not interested you are not obliged to take part, or even read, so what is the problem? |
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Quote ="Fully"MS: Is that what you're referring to?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect
I did think of angular momentum in first instance too when explaining the science bit but thought it would possibly make me look thick so refrained.'"
The effect you linked to was more to do with top spin (but equally relevant) as the ball rotates around an unsymmetrical axis (owing to him not getting a clean strike of the ball.) The effect described above occurs in a minor way (aka not so predominantly as top spin, but still an affect on the ball) to pull it left or right, depending on the spin of the ball, the axis at any given point, wind, and speed of the ball. Basically S shapes are more than possible
Angular momentum assumes the ball is travelling on an arch in both the vertical and horizontal (and I haven't seen the replay enough times to say either way) - however you can get around that by looking at the moments of inertia on the ball (the internal angular momentum) if the ball moves largely to the left of it's axis, more air will be blocked slowing down the left hand side of the ball, altering it's axis and repeating the process.
who knew a maths degree would come in handy posting on a rugby league forum! |
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Quote ="Fully"MS: Is that what you're referring to?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect
I did think of angular momentum in first instance too when explaining the science bit but thought it would possibly make me look thick so refrained.'"
The effect you linked to was more to do with top spin (but equally relevant) as the ball rotates around an unsymmetrical axis (owing to him not getting a clean strike of the ball.) The effect described above occurs in a minor way (aka not so predominantly as top spin, but still an affect on the ball) to pull it left or right, depending on the spin of the ball, the axis at any given point, wind, and speed of the ball. Basically S shapes are more than possible
Angular momentum assumes the ball is travelling on an arch in both the vertical and horizontal (and I haven't seen the replay enough times to say either way) - however you can get around that by looking at the moments of inertia on the ball (the internal angular momentum) if the ball moves largely to the left of it's axis, more air will be blocked slowing down the left hand side of the ball, altering it's axis and repeating the process.
who knew a maths degree would come in handy posting on a rugby league forum! | |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"But the S shape we are looking at here which would be necessary wouldn’t be slight, it would be pretty pronounced.
It would be (from Brough’s POV)the ball drifting from left to right, then making a pretty sharp right to left, then taking another pretty sharp turn and a more pronounced drift left to right. This would have also needed to happen at exactly the right time so that the ball curved over the top of the post then back in again after the post.'"
Yep. And all this without any camera shot noticing the ball doing these things. |
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As I said, I'm not getting involved in this. The actual debate on this matter left about 10 pages back, it's now just 2 sets digging their heels in refusing to give leeway to the other,
The yellow path fully posted doesn't look totally infeasible from my first look on the matter. Therefore it cannot immediately dismissed. That's all I'm saying.
Given brough is standing ~3metres to the left of the left hand post - and the ball supposedly hits the glass to just the left hand side of the middle ~2metres inside the left hand post - over a space of ~35metres - a travel path of inflexion, or an S bend travel path is credible and possible.
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| Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"As I said, I'm not getting involved in this.
The yellow path fully posted doesn't look totally infeasible from my first look on the matter. Therefore it cannot immediately dismissed. That's all I'm saying.'"
It doesnt look infeasible to me either. But there are a billion different paths which feasibly a ball could follow. It did only follow one and that wasnt it. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"But the S shape we are looking at here which would be necessary wouldn’t be slight, it would be pretty pronounced.
It would be (from Brough’s POV)the ball drifting from left to right, then making a pretty sharp right to left, then taking another pretty sharp turn and a more pronounced drift left to right. This would have also needed to happen at exactly the right time so that the ball curved over the top of the post then back in again after the post.'"
No - it really wouldn't.
The ball goes up at a certain angle but drifts to a more upward/left trajectory but still moving slightly right taking it over the post.
It still moves right after the posts as it curves and comes back down, hence why it smashes into a window in the middle of the posts. This happens because it moves x distance -> whilst it moves x distance ^ forward.
Really isn't hard to understand. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"It doesnt look infeasible to me either. But there are a billion different paths which feasibly a ball could follow. It did only follow one and that wasnt it.'"
That's not what my original point was - I have neither the technology nor the desire to add to the numerous photo evidence already on this thread - the path in question posted couldn't be dismissed for the reasons originally given - whether his, or yours or anyone else's plot points were correct I have no idea. |
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| Quote ="Fully"No - it really wouldn't.
The ball goes up at a certain angle but drifts to a more upward/left trajectory but still moving slightly right taking it over the post.
It still moves right after the posts as it curves and comes back down, hence why it smashes into a window in the middle of the posts. This happens because it moves x distance -> whilst it moves x distance ^ forward.
Really isn't hard to understand.'"
Im sorry but a ball cannot take a left trajectory whilst still moving slightly right. Thats just nonsense. |
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| Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"That's not what my original point was - I have neither the technology nor the desire to add to the numerous photo evidence already on this thread - the path in question posted couldn't be dismissed for the reasons originally given - whether his, or yours or anyone else's plot points were correct I have no idea.'"
You not knowing does not give credence to it. That way lies people believing in sky fairies. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"You not knowing does not give credence to it. That way lies people believing in sky fairies.'"
I'm not saying it should.
People dismissing theories for incorrect reasons leads to fairies and monsters |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Ever helpful, here's a ground plan, I've drawn (very) approximate lines for glass boxes, dead ball line, and Brough's position but it does look as if the glass box is appreciably closer to the dead ball line than Brough's kicking position. Certainly it is not further back and I actually think Brough kicked from a little bit further back than I have sketched..
 '"
If the point where the ball struck the "Fantastic" was closer to the posts (not dead ball line) than Brough was when he kicked it, then I stick with what I saw at the time - it was clearly, without doubt a goal.
As to Bentham's positioning - why do people think it was perfect? From my experience looking up from so close it is the worst place to judge from. Should have gone to the VR. No excuse. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Im sorry but a ball cannot take a left trajectory whilst still moving slightly right. Thats just nonsense.'"
Sorry - let me make this simple with the aid of lines in a pee poor paint drawing.
Let's assume that the straight line is the route that Brough was aiming (the positioning is off but as an example it works).
The ball en-route drifts to the left carrying it over the top of the post. The ball is still moving in a right direction but has moved left.
Not hard to understand. |
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Seems like we have a variant of Schrodinger's Cat here - it was both in and out simultaneously!
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If we accept that there might be such a thing as a Hokey Cokey ball, though - why did it not make any of these movements whatsoever as it rose up from Brough's boot? Where at least the video evidence seems crystal clear from my composite?
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