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| Quote ="Bull Mania"To be fair I think if referees spot shoulder charges to the head they produce red cards.
Paul wood yellow was correct, but the yellow to Pettybourne was a completely cop put from Bentham.
The Mccllorum shot was very poor. Very dangerous play when a players turned his back and is relaxed. Tomkins was a poor challenge as well.'"
The correct decision, according to the letter of the law, is a red for Wood and yellow for Pettybourne.
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| Quote ="CM Punk"Both Stuart Cummins & Paul Cullen, no major Wigan fans, saw it as a late challenge with the chest and nothing more. I'd tend to agree with them.'"
That's debatable. What isn't is that it was late, deliberate, he could have pulled out, instead he put effort into the collision that resulted in a player who had relaxed being stretchered off in a neck brace.
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| Quote ="The Devil's Advocate"The more I see of him, the more he reminds me of Terry Newton.'"
The cynical nasty side is where the similarity ends. Newton was a brilliant rugby player, McIlorum has nothing else to his game.
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| Quote ="CM Punk"Both Stuart Cummins & Paul Cullen, no major Wigan fans, saw it as a late challenge with the chest and nothing more. I'd tend to agree with them.'"
Certainly not the shoulder charge some are insinuating. But certainly reckless and late.
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| Quote ="Clearwing"Certainly not the shoulder charge some are insinuating. But certainly reckless and late.'"
it was a shoulder charge in exactly the same way as Moons was. A shoulder thrown forward from front on and far more dangerous. Its rarely the actual impact that causes serious injury but the whiplash effect, thats why amateur boxing is phasing out head guards, whilst it protects the initial impact it exacerbates the whiplash effect. Such an injury is far more likely from that type of hit on a prone and defenceless player than a player taking a high shot running and prepared.
It was also, late, cowardly and unnecessary.
Late hits on the kicker and passer are cowardly, dangerous and add nothing to the game. I have absolutely no idea why we give them tacit acceptance and even encourage them with the 'committed' justification. The game loses nothing if MciLorum gets sent off there, because if he knew he was going to be sent off, there isnt a chance he makes that tackle
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| The title of this thread is 'consistency', it all most of us ask for. There is no doubt it las late and he could have pulled out. However he didn't hit him particularly hard, it wasn't a shoulder charge and wasn't high. I've probably seen about 50 of those on televised games this year and would guess there is another 100 it so gone unpunished so demanding MM be banned is certainly not consistent.
I agree he should be punished as there is no need for it but so should everyone else. As they haven't been then a precedent has been set. I thought it was meant to be an automatic 10 mins in the bin but that seems to have been forgotten.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"it was a shoulder charge in exactly the same way as Moons was. A shoulder thrown forward from front on and far more dangerous. Its rarely the actual impact that causes serious injury but the whiplash effect, thats why amateur boxing is phasing out head guards, whilst it protects the initial impact it exacerbates the whiplash effect. Such an injury is far more likely from that type of hit on a prone and defenceless player than a player taking a high shot running and prepared.
It was also, late, cowardly and unnecessary.
Late hits on the kicker and passer are cowardly, dangerous and add nothing to the game. I have absolutely no idea why we give them tacit acceptance and even encourage them with the 'committed' justification. The game loses nothing if MciLorum gets sent off there, because if he knew he was going to be sent off, there isnt a chance he makes that tackle'"
MM's shoulder didn't make contact whereas Moon's did. As for it being rare for the actual impact to cause serious injury, I can only assume you regard concussion as fairly minor.
Don't have any issue with the rest of your post apart from the notion that MM wouldn't have made the challenge had he known he'd be sent off for it. I certainly wouldn't stake my mortgage on that.
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| Quote ="CM Punk"Both Stuart Cummins & Paul Cullen, no major Wigan fans, saw it as a late challenge with the chest and nothing more. I'd tend to agree with them.'"
I'm not sure I'd agree with Cummins if he told me the pope was catholic
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| Quote ="Clearwing"MM's shoulder didn't make contact whereas Moon's did. As for it being rare for the actual impact to cause serious injury, I can only assume you regard concussion as fairly minor.
Don't have any issue with the rest of your post apart from the notion that MM wouldn't have made the challenge had he known he'd be sent off for it. I certainly wouldn't stake my mortgage on that.'"
MciLorums shoulder certainly did make contact. Just not with the head.
I didnt say that concussion was fairly minor, i said that more of these injuries are not caused by the initial impact but by the rapid movement of the brain in the head from a whiplash effect. The head itself is built to withstand that kind of direct trauma. Hence the example of amateur boxing. Where the blow is actually exacerbated by the headguard as it causes the head (and a such the brain) to move quicker due to the added weight. This can cause more brain injuries rather than protecting from them.
i wouldnt assume to bet anything on McIlorums stupidity but i do think we would see far fewer.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I didnt say that concussion was fairly minor, i said that more of these injuries are not caused by the initial impact but by the rapid movement of the brain in the head from a whiplash effect. The head itself is built to withstand that kind of direct trauma. Hence the example of amateur boxing. Where the blow is actually exacerbated by the headguard as it causes the head (and a such the brain) to move quicker due to the added weight. This can cause more brain injuries rather than protecting from them.'"
OT here, but how would extra weight make the head move more quickly?
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| Quote ="Clearwing"OT here, but how would extra weight make the head move more quickly?'"
force = mass x acceleration, increase the mass, increase the force.
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| It was late, deliberate and a shoulder charge - the on report was a cop-out and I think I heard M Monaghan say something of that nature to the ref.
As for the so-called punch-up - powder puff it may have been, but Wood should have walked for that; I suspect the usual laissez-faire attitude towards this kind of incident will prevail in the run up to the play-offs; wouldn't want to be accused of a witch-hunt would they?
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| Quote ="bren2k"It was late, deliberate and a shoulder charge - the on report was a cop-out and I think I heard M Monaghan say something of that nature to the ref.
As for the so-called punch-up - powder puff it may have been, but Wood should have walked for that; I suspect the usual laissez-faire attitude towards this kind of incident will prevail in the run up to the play-offs; wouldn't want to be accused of a witch-hunt would they?'"
I have a bit of sympathy with the ref re the on report as play had continued for another tackle or so. But it highlights the inconsistency where if Warrington had stood there and not continued play they would've got a penalty and an on-field punishment for McIlorum.
This and the Moon incident (not the actual punishment of sending off, but the way the decision was reached) where the ref was going to allow play to continue and would've done had the Saints player not been injured and then the incident and punishment was adjudged by the VR shows that there are big problems and deep inconsistencies with how refs use the VR and resources available to them.
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| Quote ="Him"I have a bit of sympathy with the ref re the on report as play had continued for another tackle or so. But it highlights the inconsistency where if Warrington had stood there and not continued play they would've got a penalty and an on-field punishment for McIlorum.
This and the Moon incident (not the actual punishment of sending off, but the way the decision was reached) where the ref was going to allow play to continue and would've done had the Saints player not been injured and then the incident and punishment was adjudged by the VR shows that there are big problems and deep inconsistencies with how refs use the VR and resources available to them.'"
I agree. Maybe it's time to allow the Refs to refer big decisions like these that are not seen in full by the on field ref to the VR. If that had been the case last night, Pettybourne would have stayed on the field and Wood would have seen red, along with Mickey Mac later in the game.
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| Quote ="Biff Tannen"I agree. Maybe it's time to allow the Refs to refer big decisions like these that are not seen in full by the on field ref to the VR. If that had been the case last night, Pettybourne would have stayed on the field and Wood would have seen red, along with Mickey Mac later in the game.'"
it would make sense wouldnt it.
Why isnt 'on report' meaning a referral to the VR? Anything untoward is picked up post match in the review anyway. On report doesnt actually seem to be anything.
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| 'on report' annoys the hell out of me. Everyone in the ground can see the countless replays and see what foul play has taken place yet the culprit gets to stay on the field of play and help his side to a possible victory when he should be sat in the changing rooms.
In the majority of cases you can come to a conclusion on the offence within a couple of views so at games with the VR it should be used without doubt.
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| Quote ="Biff Tannen"'on report' annoys the hell out of me. Everyone in the ground can see the countless replays and see what foul play has taken place yet the culprit gets to stay on the field of play and help his side to a possible victory when he should be sat in the changing rooms.
In the majority of cases you can come to a conclusion on the offence within a couple of views so at games with the VR it should be used without doubt.'"
I agree with you in one sense Biff, if the official sees it he deals with it. I think they use it however in that the video evidence is incontrovertible and players with good briefs have, in the past, managed to dodge the bullet of a match officials report where they may have been an inconsistency that was ironically proven wrong, by video.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"force = mass x acceleration, increase the mass, increase the force.'"
Except in this instance the force is the blow. Which would remain constant. The mass would increase ergo the acceleration would actually be less. I'm pretty sure no-one has proven why brain injuries increased after head protection was adopted, the consensus seems to be that more punches land (bigger target) or that headgear promotes greater recklessness on the part of the wearer.
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| the look on pettybournes face after paul wood punched him twice was like "you hit like a girl"
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| Quote ="Clearwing"Except in this instance the force is the blow. Which would remain constant. The mass would increase ergo the acceleration would actually be less. I'm pretty sure no-one has proven why brain injuries increased after head protection was adopted, the consensus seems to be that more punches land (bigger target) or that headgear promotes greater recklessness on the part of the wearer.'"
No the force would be the movement of the brain in this instance. and it is often the rapid acceleration of the brain which causes brain injury not the impact. Its why you have a head rest in a car. Your head being thrown forwards then backwards at speed can cause brain injury even though it may not actually hit anything with great force.
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| Quote ="onehotegg"the look on pettybournes face after paul wood punched him twice was like "you hit like a girl"'"
Pettybournes pawing wasnt much better. It was like watching too drunk grizzly bears.
Both should be up before the PFU.
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| Quote ="Biff Tannen"I agree. Maybe it's time to allow the Refs to refer big decisions like these that are not seen in full by the on field ref to the VR. If that had been the case last night, Pettybourne would have stayed on the field and Wood would have seen red, along with Mickey Mac later in the game.'"
It also begs the question of what the TJ's role is - how did the ref and both touchies miss what happened? It seems that some (maybe the moonlighting refs?) run on at with the flag at every opportunity, whilst others don't get involved.
Perhaps it goes back to long and interesting story told by a recently retired official in another thread; they're poorly trained, badly resourced and not properly evaluated. I can see the argument for using the VR more often - the problem there of course is that introduces more inconsistency, because you only get good quality decisions at televised matches; I'd rather make better use of the existing resources than add more.
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| im sure i read somewhere that there will be a vr at every game next year, not sure where we will find them from though
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| I haven't seen the incident but MM has form on this sort of thing so no surprises there.
And TA is correct regarding the forces on the brain and how an unprotected/unaware person being hit when they aren't expecting it can do much greater damage than a direct head impact (from whatever body part of the other person).
Whiplash & rotational forces (which are increased with wearing helmets/headguards on impact by an alarming%%) that can and do effect the brain are vastly underestimated by many sports. Late shots on a kicker for example that mean the neck and head are forced at high speed back and forth (or the otherway round for a for a front on challenge), this needn't even be a hit to the head itself.
Late challenges that are anything but a traditional waist tackle that are difficult to pull out from due to your body position should be given the same amount of punishment as a reckless head high tackle..either that or the sport is accepting that it is okay for rugby players to be injured with little protection by affirming that these things won't be punished on-field which is what will reduce the incidents of such.
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| Quote ="Starbug"No he's from wiggin, which means he's a 50% chance of being a bellend'"
Aren't you from Leigh? You're more of a Wigginer than me.
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