But surely by criticising a team like Leigh for only having a 2000 fan base you are suggesting that they can not turn it round. Super League turned it around for Hull KR, nothing else.

You're such a simpleton, it's pitiful to read.

Nobody but you suggested that fans of rival NL1 and 2 teams determine on such matters, what a stupid and idiotic thing to even consider let alone post.

For one thing, NL1 and NL2 no longer exists.

Secondly of course the RFL (being the sports governing body) should be the ones to determine when clubs are ready, no one is arguing against that, sorry to disappoint you.

What people are saying is that the RFL must not put expansion teams like the Crusaders before they are ready. The evidence is abundantly clear that they simply were not ready. The RFL made a promise to Samuels that they would be in Super League 2009, that is why he invested. The RFL need to learn that this particular method of expansion has failed dramatically and future attempts should not be rushed in the same way if it is to succeed.

Nobody is suggesting that the decision making is taken out of the RFL's hands or that we should stop expansion but you, in your sarcastic and idiotic tone because to you, that's how the rest of us think and that is what fuels your argument. Really, your just arguing with yourself on this matter. Do you suffer from a split personality disorder?

The last sentence of your nonsensical response just about sums up how idiotic you are, regardless of it's intent. You are simply to blind and stupid to begin to reason with anyone else's logic.

Sorry for using words of more than two syllables and sentences using more than 3 words, I know you may struggle to understand.

nope, with their new ground i was hoping leigh might even get their crowds up to 5000. seriously.

i see no reason why Fax, or leigh cant at least get to 3000, if not more, especially with the grounds they play in

if crowds are growing and the finances are good in NL1, why cant either present a realisitic SL bid

they dont have to spend all their money on winning NL1 so they can build for the longer term. as heartland teams with good grounds, surely they have it all in their favour

you really arent the sharpest knife in the drawer

you are implying you and others like you knew more about CC being ready for SL than the RFL.

the RFL certainly didnt think CC werent ready, they thought the time was right, hence my facetous comment.

well leave the expansion decisions up to the experts ie fans of rival NL1 and 2 clubs who knew CC werent ready for SL, and Les Catalans were

No we are not , we knew they weren't ready , the RFL knew they weren't ready , but they still went through with it , what does that tell you ?

The 100 year argument is not ridiculous at all. Sports clubs that have had success tend to have had decent crowds over the years, they might fluctuate but if you look at teams like Wolves, or Notts Forest who have had some success but not much recently, they have still maintained decent crowds. There is no real equivalent in RL because as soon as a team has a low spot the fans dissappear. In 100 years, it should be possible to develop a decent number of dedicated fans, especially if they are the main team in town. Before someone says it, I am not expecting RL clubs to get crowds as big as soccer, but the percentage of diehards should be the same and it isn't.

...and you really are a weapon's grade moron.



No I am not. You are interpreting it that way. The two are distinctly different. The evidence is there for all to see that they were not ready, the RFL chose to ignore it.



It doesn't take a genius to work out that CC weren't read for Super League and your continual use of Les Catalans as an example is as flawed as every other piece of guff you spout.

My house is built on sand and has no real foundations. Was built in 1930 and has no cracks in the walls. Thats the reason sand bags a filled to stop bullets.

Bottom line:
*Samuels was not ready to finance the CC for three years in SL, but the RFL could not know that we would hit the worst financial crisis since the Thatcher era.
*CC have been bought by another club that think they can make money from the club, shock! Someone thinks they could run RL for profit? Burn them!
*Over the last 4 years the CC's "promis" of SL has meant great RL development in South Wales and lots of media interest. This has been hightened by CC in SL.
*There will be a club building on that interest and development in South Wales.
*RL has lost no money on the CC, since an Association Football team has picked up the tab, and is risking its money on them being profitable.

Obviously the Wrexam outcome is less good than had the CC stayed in South Wales, but it's by no means the end of the world. The real victims are the Crusaders fans and then again there are apparently only three of them, so no worries.

It is irrelevant because it would happen to all RL clubs therefore it is a problem of rugby league rather than the clubs themselves. You cannot ridicule a side for getting crowds of 2000 now saying they have had 100 years to build a fanbase and have failed when at times in that period they had much bigger crowds and all clubs would suffer a similar drop if they dropped down the divisions.

It is because RL has never succeeded in getting big enough that the crowds drop in the way they do. The Championship is such a drop from the top division that many people just don't enjoy watching a league where the crowds are low, travelling support is low and interest is low.

Which clubs would we class as having built up this support over 100 years?

Good to see history is already starting to be re-written.

I guarantee that within the next few years the consensus and oft trotted out line will be that CC failed because of the credit crunch and nothing else.

Did Samuels not post a profit this year?

you seem to think you and others like you know more than the RFL.

im backing the RFL at the moment

sorry, i go with facts rather than bias

the heartland clubs thatve been in SL the longest. the cream has risen to the top other than widnes

survival of the fittest etc.

when murdoch came up with his 90 million pounds SL deal, how much of the money was used for clubs outside SL as a bribe to allow it to go through

these clubs just cant help themselves

the RFL can only do so much. if these clubs dont have the management and people behind the scences to build the club into viable sporting outfits, they deserve to die off.

RL doesnt have the funds to waste on clubs going nowhere in the heartlands

Similar all-australian teams had failed after a short amount of time.

It was always quite likely that it wasn't going to last very long. I and many others suspected that LS had over-estimated what the Crusaders could get early on and he paid for it, heavily.

Of course we were only biased and despite being proved correct are still only biased. Go figure.

Survival of the fittest cannot be achieved by a licence system which, by its very nature, is about protectionism. Only P&R can, and did, achieve survival of the fittest.

Some interesting opinions in this thread. As somebody who works and studies in Wrexham I'm delighted with the proposed move. On a personal level, I have always felt that RL has a much better chance of prospering in the North than it has ever had in the South.

I do feel sorry for those Crusaders fans who will no longer be able to support their club week in, week out but there is huge potential for the game up here. The WRU have pretty much turned a blind eye to the region, save for a couple of Scarlets games, and their is a definite gap in the market for a top level Rugby club.

North Wales has some extremely strong amateur RU clubs with massive junior sections. I accept that RU and RL are different games but their is a huge potential talent and supporter base for the Crusaders to target. Currently, there are very limited opportunities for people living in the region to watch top-level professional sport. In fact, there are none. If this move is done properly and supported by some forward-thinking, long-term marketing and community work then it can work.

The Crusaders have been competing with some major RU and football clubs for support and attention. The WRU are extremely active in the South and the local press are very RU-focused, understandably so given the large crowds and levels of interest. I'm not really sure whether they were ready or not for Super League - performances both on and off the field would suggest not - but the simple fact is that the RFL made the decision and we must run with it and hope it succeeds.

I am very pleased that a new South Wales-based club has been formed and I hope they are successful. Having two senior RL clubs in Wales can only compliment the excellent progress the WRL have been making on the international scene.

People who suggest that the new consortium are only in this to raise money for the football club are wide of the mark. Wrexham FC have endured a couple of pretty miserable campaigns and apathy amongst their supporters is pretty high - something I can relate do being a supporter of Chester City. They attracted just over 1000 fans this weekend so they have their own work to do. Nobody sees the Crusaders as a magic wand that will bring revenue into the club. They know it is a long-term project that will require lots of hard work but they also recognise that the addition of the Crusaders can compliment the football club and raise the towns profile.

There is a fair amount of building work scheduled for the Racecourse - including a new Kop end - and for this to be worth the effort the ground needs to be in use 12 months of the year. Wrexham is a pleasant enough town and the Racecourse is about as central as you can get. The train station is 200 yards away and the town centre can be reached in 5 minutes. It has lots of bars, shops and restaurants and with the North Wales coast a short drive away it is a welcome addition to Super League.

I'm not going to comment on the frustration of Widnes fans or followers of other clubs who missed out on Super League. However, no matter how close Wrexham is to Widnes the fact remains that it is in Wales and the presence of two elite Welsh RL clubs is great for the development of RL. Personally, I think Widnes should be in SL and probably would be if it weren't for the antics of Stephen Vaughan.

You carry on going with your RFL bias ('facts' to you) and carry backing a bunch of incompetents, it speaks volumes about you.

Quote ="Gladiators"Some interesting opinions in this thread. As somebody who works and studies in Wrexham I'm delighted with the proposed move. On a personal level, I have always felt that RL has a much better chance of prospering in the North than it has ever had in the South. I do feel sorry for those Crusaders fans who will no longer be able to support their club week in, week out but there is huge potential for the game up here. The WRU have pretty much turned a blind eye to the region, save for a couple of Scarlets games, and their is a definite gap in the market for a top level Rugby club. North Wales has some extremely strong amateur RU clubs with massive junior sections. I accept that RU and RL are different games but their is a huge potential talent and supporter base for the Crusaders to target. Currently, there are very limited opportunities for people living in the region to watch top-level professional sport. In fact, there are none. If this move is done properly and supported by some forward-thinking, long-term marketing and community work then it can work. The Crusaders have been competing with some major RU and football clubs for support and attention. The WRU are extremely active in the South and the local press are very RU-focused, understandably so given the large crowds and levels of interest. I'm not really sure whether they were ready or not for Super League - performances both on and off the field would suggest not - but the simple fact is that the RFL made the decision and we must run with it and hope it succeeds. I am very pleased that a new South Wales-based club has been formed and I hope they are successful. Having two senior RL clubs in Wales can only compliment the excellent progress the WRL have been making on the international scene. People who suggest that the new consortium are only in this to raise money for the football club are wide of the mark. Wrexham FC have endured a couple of pretty miserable campaigns and apathy amongst their supporters is pretty high - something I can relate do being a supporter of Chester City. They attracted just over 1000 fans this weekend so they have their own work to do. Nobody sees the Crusaders as a magic wand that will bring revenue into the club. They know it is a long-term project that will require lots of hard work but they also recognise that the addition of the Crusaders can compliment the football club and raise the towns profile. There is a fair amount of building work scheduled for the Racecourse - including a new Kop end - and for this to be worth the effort the ground needs to be in use 12 months of the year. Wrexham is a pleasant enough town and the Racecourse is about as central as you can get. The train station is 200 yards away and the town centre can be reached in 5 minutes. It has lots of bars, shops and restaurants and with the North Wales coast a short drive away it is a welcome addition to Super League. I'm not going to comment on the frustration of Widnes fans or followers of other clubs who missed out on Super League. However, no matter how close Wrexham is to Widnes the fact remains that it is in Wales and the presence of two elite Welsh RL clubs is great for the development of RL. Personally, I think Widnes should be in SL and probably would be if it weren't for the antics of Stephen Vaughan.'" I pretty much agree with all of that but, Wrexham FC chief executive Paul Retout has made a big issue out of the fact that he sees it as being for the benefit of the Soccer club. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 387114.stm You are bang on about North Wales having no major sport in the area. Perhaps the RFL could’ve stumbled upon an area, that stands a reasonable chance of success, almost by default? The only reason I have my doubts is because of the adhoc way the club has come into being, and a total lack of RL played in the area at the moment. If the RFL can replicate what they have done down the M4 corridor in the South then this just might work. I’m not saying it will but, with a fair bit of marketing, and a team that doesn’t get hammered every week, they could pull in people from across North Wales, as well as getting in more fans from the heartland clubs.

Quote ="Gladiators"Some interesting opinions in this thread. As somebody who works and studies in Wrexham I'm delighted with the proposed move. On a personal level, I have always felt that RL has a much better chance of prospering in the North than it has ever had in the South. I do feel sorry for those Crusaders fans who will no longer be able to support their club week in, week out but there is huge potential for the game up here. The WRU have pretty much turned a blind eye to the region, save for a couple of Scarlets games, and their is a definite gap in the market for a top level Rugby club. North Wales has some extremely strong amateur RU clubs with massive junior sections. I accept that RU and RL are different games but their is a huge potential talent and supporter base for the Crusaders to target. Currently, there are very limited opportunities for people living in the region to watch top-level professional sport. In fact, there are none. If this move is done properly and supported by some forward-thinking, long-term marketing and community work then it can work. The Crusaders have been competing with some major RU and football clubs for support and attention. The WRU are extremely active in the South and the local press are very RU-focused, understandably so given the large crowds and levels of interest. I'm not really sure whether they were ready or not for Super League - performances both on and off the field would suggest not - but the simple fact is that the RFL made the decision and we must run with it and hope it succeeds. I am very pleased that a new South Wales-based club has been formed and I hope they are successful. Having two senior RL clubs in Wales can only compliment the excellent progress the WRL have been making on the international scene. People who suggest that the new consortium are only in this to raise money for the football club are wide of the mark. Wrexham FC have endured a couple of pretty miserable campaigns and apathy amongst their supporters is pretty high - something I can relate do being a supporter of Chester City. They attracted just over 1000 fans this weekend so they have their own work to do. Nobody sees the Crusaders as a magic wand that will bring revenue into the club. They know it is a long-term project that will require lots of hard work but they also recognise that the addition of the Crusaders can compliment the football club and raise the towns profile. There is a fair amount of building work scheduled for the Racecourse - including a new Kop end - and for this to be worth the effort the ground needs to be in use 12 months of the year. Wrexham is a pleasant enough town and the Racecourse is about as central as you can get. The train station is 200 yards away and the town centre can be reached in 5 minutes. It has lots of bars, shops and restaurants and with the North Wales coast a short drive away it is a welcome addition to Super League. I'm not going to comment on the frustration of Widnes fans or followers of other clubs who missed out on Super League. However, no matter how close Wrexham is to Widnes the fact remains that it is in Wales and the presence of two elite Welsh RL clubs is great for the development of RL. Personally, I think Widnes should be in SL and probably would be if it weren't for the antics of Stephen Vaughan.'" I pretty much agree with all of that but, Wrexham FC chief executive Paul Retout has made a big issue out of the fact that he sees it as being for the benefit of the Soccer club. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 387114.stm You are bang on about North Wales having no major sport in the area. Perhaps the RFL could’ve stumbled upon an area, that stands a reasonable chance of success, almost by default? The only reason I have my doubts is because of the adhoc way the club has come into being, and a total lack of RL played in the area at the moment. If the RFL can replicate what they have done down the M4 corridor in the South then this just might work. I’m not saying it will but, with a fair bit of marketing, and a team that doesn’t get hammered every week, they could pull in people from across North Wales, as well as getting in more fans from the heartland clubs.

I think the choice was

a) Liquidation and NO RFL at any venue or

b) A Super League team in Wrexham in a super Stadium backed by a Chairman who has sold his business for big money rather than a Chairman having enormous problems trying to keep his own business afloat.


As it happens the outcome for RL fans in Wales will be very positive and the new side will be playing at a more realistic level for their Welsh (hopefully) players. I really dont think its all doom and gloom at all.

Excellent first post. I really hope it works too.

at the time Hull KR had a 1500 fan base they were a s**t club too.

Having followed Rovers a long time & watched crowds fluctuate over the years has been frustrating. Yes some hard work & cash has been put in by the board but to suggest some of the other lower division clubs could do the same is not quiet right nowadays. It is not fair to say clubs have had 100 years as up to 1995 small town clubs could compete with most of the big clubs as the whole game except Wgan was part time. I have a warm respect for clubs like Featherstone but to compete in Super League they will need to pull in crowds of over 10,000 (as HKR's chairman has stated we need to to be viable long term) The one thing we have going for us is that we are located in a large city & I am afraid now most top flight sports clubs of any code with full time staff will have to be. The day of the local small buisness man runing his club as a hobby have long gone & we are at the mercy of larger buisiness owners trying to make it work in the sports buisiness as in the case of CC & failure in his core buisiness brining down the sports club.

It is this kind of partnering which ought to provide a good chance for success. Overhead costs relating to the ground are borne by both clubs, thus, each individual club benefits from a lower cost base. A win win. And there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Further integration of ticketing, merchandising, club shop even marketing could extend the benefits. This sort of arrangement should make clubs viable even with a relatively small crowd intitally. Let's hope that the commitment is there this time.

I think we know this is the most important thing.

Too often as LS did they expect instant success and it's just not that simple. They need time to develop a Welsh team and build towards success on the field in this way.

That's what worries me about the move north, it has a fair bit going for it, no competition and no massive animosity to RL if anything the opposite. However I feel like they are going to be back to square one with regards to getting Welsh players in the team. The best thing about being in South Wales was they had a whole lot of rugby players to pick from who wanted to have a go at League or were disillusioned with Union. They won't have these in the north and it would be naive to think that they can still do this to the same extent with only a Championship One side over 100 miles away.

Therefore it's going to need more commitment than South Wales would have done and do we realistically think that they are going to be that committed? Here's hoping the owners fall in love with the game.

Completely agree BR , Rovers were always the big town club with a large dormant support base when you were down with us , I have argued with many on the Leigh MB that we need a minimum of 4,000 at the level we are now to ever be able to get anywhere near to the size of support needed to finance a viable SL operation , the days of any of the smaller clubs moving up is probably over

So what is needed is a re think by the RFL on how the lower tier clubs we have can be maintained , Toulouse and attracting a Sugar Daddy just doesn't cut it I'm afraid

Quote ="Pepe"I pretty much agree with all of that but, Wrexham FC chief executive Paul Retout has made a big issue out of the fact that he sees it as being for the benefit of the Soccer club. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 387114.stm You are bang on about North Wales having no major sport in the area. Perhaps the RFL could’ve stumbled upon an area, that stands a reasonable chance of success, almost by default? The only reason I have my doubts is because of the adhoc way the club has come into being, and a total lack of RL played in the area at the moment. If the RFL can replicate what they have done down the M4 corridor in the South then this just might work. I’m not saying it will but, with a fair bit of marketing, and a team that doesn’t get hammered every week, they could pull in people from across North Wales, as well as getting in more fans from the heartland clubs.'" I'll be interested to find out who - other than Geoff Moss - is involved in the consortium. Clearly the move will have some benefits for Wrexham FC such as rent for the stadium, shared maintainence costs/upkeep of the stadium, additional commercial income from advertising, greater use of the function suite and I understand that Crusaders merchandise will be sold in the Wrexham FC shop too. I'm sure Paul Retout, or anybody else at the football club, don't expect the Crusaders to bring thousands of pounds into the club directly though. We - Chester Gladiators - are the nearest amateur club to Wrexham and Rhyl Coasters (formerly North Wales Coasters) are a bit further along in the opposite direction too. Off the top of my head I reckon that 40% of our adult and 60% of our junior players come from "over the border". The club may not have been particularly successfully in the past but this is a chance for them to make a fresh start on and off the pitch. Brian Noble is an excellent coach and Geoff Moss was hugely successful with his travel agency so the basic elements are there. As I say though, still lots of work to be done.

Quote ="Pepe"I pretty much agree with all of that but, Wrexham FC chief executive Paul Retout has made a big issue out of the fact that he sees it as being for the benefit of the Soccer club. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 387114.stm You are bang on about North Wales having no major sport in the area. Perhaps the RFL could’ve stumbled upon an area, that stands a reasonable chance of success, almost by default? The only reason I have my doubts is because of the adhoc way the club has come into being, and a total lack of RL played in the area at the moment. If the RFL can replicate what they have done down the M4 corridor in the South then this just might work. I’m not saying it will but, with a fair bit of marketing, and a team that doesn’t get hammered every week, they could pull in people from across North Wales, as well as getting in more fans from the heartland clubs.'" I'll be interested to find out who - other than Geoff Moss - is involved in the consortium. Clearly the move will have some benefits for Wrexham FC such as rent for the stadium, shared maintainence costs/upkeep of the stadium, additional commercial income from advertising, greater use of the function suite and I understand that Crusaders merchandise will be sold in the Wrexham FC shop too. I'm sure Paul Retout, or anybody else at the football club, don't expect the Crusaders to bring thousands of pounds into the club directly though. We - Chester Gladiators - are the nearest amateur club to Wrexham and Rhyl Coasters (formerly North Wales Coasters) are a bit further along in the opposite direction too. Off the top of my head I reckon that 40% of our adult and 60% of our junior players come from "over the border". The club may not have been particularly successfully in the past but this is a chance for them to make a fresh start on and off the pitch. Brian Noble is an excellent coach and Geoff Moss was hugely successful with his travel agency so the basic elements are there. As I say though, still lots of work to be done.