Mate, Mr Perez said in 2016 Toronto would succeed by bringing NATV deals and new quality NA players into the game.

After he walked away 2019 McDernott came in and said to the media TWP would not be providing any NA players or NA TV deals.

Just how more "failed" can that be??

On the finances they have already lost $$Millions

Just how even more failed can that be either.

With deep respect it's a bit like saying Doncaster have not failed yet........

Thanks for your reply. I'm not here to win anyone over just try to take the emotions out of the debate and bring in the facts. I don't accept a 10 club SL, I just note that this time last year Lengegan & Co, were pitching for 2 x 10 clubs to come under Superleague control. I don't know if you remember that? I also think that if they play some of their fellow SL clubs 3 times now then they may play them all 3 times and have a 27 round SL. of 10 clubs.

The logic is if the SKY deal drops 10 clubs means the SL chairmen may not have to make up any shortfalls? I also remember way back Jamie Peacock calling for 10 clubs to ensure games are intense. OK none of this may be inspiring to us fans me included - but if the player pool is shrinking AND the SKY money is shrinking I can't see any way other than 10 English clubs. I'm just at the other end of the scale to those who think Rugby league is growing across North America and Europe and we are on the cusp of some massive commercial deals.

Whose currently jeopardised by TWP?

Thank you very much for ALL of your interesting post most of which I don't disagree with.

You believe we either expand or die but I do not see that relegating Leigh and shipping their players to play in Toronto which then doesn't result in a TV deal from Canada is in any shape or form expansion? Expansion is a bigger player pool and a bigger sponsorship/TV money pool. Even Perez said that!! So clubs like Catalans and Toronto are only "geographical" expansion and that means more travel costs and less away fans = lower gates. We need business expansion.

If say the game had taken off in London, Newcastle, Paris Perpignan and South Wales such that they produced an EXTRA 125 quality RL players that would be expansion. Say these five clubs all joined Superleague and French TV provided a TV deal bigger than their recent one with Paris on board and SKY decided to increase their TV deal on the basis of a bigger better and still good quality 16 club league, that would be expansion. But this didn't happen, we haven't expanded.......

What I would ask you to consider is that 70 years ago we had Leeds, Wigan, HKR, Salford, Wakefield, Huddersfield, St.helens, Warrington, Bradford, Widnes, Hull and Castleford as our big clubs. 70 years later they are still roughly speaking our big clubs.

We haven't really expanded at all in 70 years ....But we certainly never died as a result did we?? ..................... I would respectfully suggest "expand or die" is an empty slogan?

Yep. Is British ice hockey dead? No, IMO. Even if British RL went back to being part-time, so what IMO, we'd still have some who would be full-time players in effect, as the best would be working for the clubs and RFL in some way. And some playing in the NRL, which i assume will be full-time for many yrs to come.

Rugby league has been played in Toulouse for over 80 years. There is a rugby league tradition in Toulouse.

Have you checked recently the average number of fans who attend Toulouse home games and the average number of fans who attend Keighley home games? Go and check. And in which decade of the previous century did Keighley last attract over 6,000 to a home game? Toulouse did it in 2019. Go and check. Because like most flat cap anti expansionists you are fact free and utterly clueless.

Did you see their paltry crowd v Featherstone Rovers in the Championship Grand Final Qualifier, I doubt you even watched it, but there wasn't even 2K on.
I have nothing against them at all, play an exciting brand of rugby, not full of imports etc. Let's just see how it goes in 2020 for them, before you start with your propaganda about TOXIII. You never heard of Cougarmania back in Australia mate ?, early 90's Keighley got home crowds of nearly 5K in the 2nd division (championship).

It would of been their biggest ever game too poor crowd shocking stadium not worth of been in super league

BOOM.......THERE GOES ANOTHER

Which country are you pretending to be in today Walter?

It's not pretend, it's really happening, well at least in his head anyway.

If it helps Toulouse averaged 2300 crowds (notwithstanding allegations of them inflating this). Soccer and Rugby Union in the city average 16-18,000 so Toulouse are a distant third. For a good number of years now since they made a straight enquiry about getting into Superleague, they have been toiling to have actual French players in their team as much as possible as Superleague bosses fed up with Catalans having a largely English/Aussie team asked them to do this. They were also asked for a TV deal, and the existing French deal for Catalans could have gone up with the addition of Toulouse to SL but of course the phoney TWP got in the way, so now there is no deal.

As with TWP and as you know good sir, attendances are nothing to do with possible entry to Superleague - the requirement is to produce pro/SL level quality players and get TV deals which neither club does. Toulouse don't have a rich backer either (they say once in SL backing will come) so I suppose they are a french version of Halifax. If TO were to put themselves forward for Superleague then Halifax, Fev, Bradford, Widnes and Leigh should all apply as they are certainly better qualified on the correct criteria than Toulouse.

As I am sure you appreciate, but I say it for any dreamers reading, expansion isn't putting clubs clubs 900 to 9000 miles away into SL, but a small but noisy band of alleged RL fans, plus two RL paper editors and a dual personality & gender victim, seemingly think it is?

As my fellow Celt Mark Evans said to Dave Woods on the BBC a few months ago, if you're the third most watched sport in a city it really is a massive struggle, i felt he was suggesting that they should stop playing, look at the Melbourne Rebels, the Western Force, Mark is a former CEO of the Melbourne Storm. Is there really any point of Yorkshire Carnegie? I'm not including international cities like London and New York here, cities under 2 or 3 million people.

I appreciate the difficulties of Leeds Carnegie up against BOTH Leeds United and Leeds Rhinos - they have no chance.

But why good sir, does the principle not apply to London where London Broncos are up against a myriad of top sports clubs? is it really any different in New York where New York RL will be up against New York Mets, New York Yankees, Brooklyn Nets, New York Nicks, New York Giants, New York Jets, New jersey devils, New York islanders, New York Rangers, New York city, New York Red Bulls and SKY Blue FC.

I suggest New York RL have something much bigger than a "massive struggle" in front of them. Happy new year my friend, thank you for your kind replies, and if anyone wants a New Years resolution of substance (especially editors of RL rags and mags) then I suggest you resolve to stop taking the American Dream seriously and start to question these people??

1. Evans was more than just the CEO of The Storm. He was the man at Quins that welcomed RL into the fold, he was the brains behind the big game that now fills twickenham each xmas, his company were employed by the RFL to promote the 2013 RLWC Double Header and he was one of a key team of business leaders tasked with cutting the Fox/NRL cord from the storm....as well as increasing gates.....all of which he did splendidly.
2. In terms of footfall at games, the Storm (18,200) are third behind the Victory (18,600) and the fumblers. The "kick it in the net" lot have a second side in the city and the derby drew 33k this year and we all know that the fumblers turn out in huge numbers, but the Storm have done well, persevered and have started to build a solid following.
3. I said (in 2002 first IIRC) that if RL wanted a team in London and SKY were not just treating us like a cheap filler, then the ownership of the Broncos should have been 50/50 the RFL and the broadcaster. The reality was Sky just wanted something else to show, ideally in summer and we get where we are now, 100% beholding to them and at their mercy.

Who is this Walter fellow to whom you would like to speak, using me as an intermediary apparently?

He's an absolute legend (in his own head anyway) perhaps he's reminded of him through you, fwiw jeannie I too can see many similarities in you and Walter.

But you have failed to fully identify the Walter fellow being referred to. The only Walter connected to rugby league whom I know of is Walter Lewis, the legendary Queensland and Australian five eighth, who is now an Immortal as well as a commentator on rugby league for Australia’s Channel 9. Is he the person whom others are confusing me with?

Would that be the same legendary Quennsland Wakefield Trinity and Australian five eighth? I do know though he is a commentator for some second rate tv station, as for being immortal I thought you had to be dead to be referred to as that, but I will accept your word for it as you appear to have had one of the finest educations available.
Unfortunately, for you anyway he is not the same Walter that you think he is confusing you with, the Walter he is confusing you with is called Mitty, now he also might have been a five eighth amongst other things, but alas he wasn't as legendary as Walter Lewis the Queensland and Wakefield Trinity player who went on to represent his country countless times not forgetting the sterling interviews he does on that tv network whose name I can't remember, if this has deflated your ego somewhat I shouldn't worry because to be mistaken for Mr Mitty is quite an achievement in itself.

Mitty!

So then
TV deal negotiations will start in earnest once the SL chairmen sell 25% (or a like figure) to a VC company. Until then it's as you were and games on Thursday and Friday evenings with no free fillers on Saturdays.
Will Sky bite the bullet and show some championship games this year or will they find another schedule filler that may again underline how little they need us?

Do you any links to details about the VC deal (apologies if it's posted on a previous page, I haven't trawled back through)

How would a decision to sell 25% come about? A simple majority vote of SL clubs?

[urlhttps://www.sportbusiness.com/news/super-league-close-to-private-investment/[/url

Why on earth would you wish to call him by a name that NOBOY uses.
Rather than make you appear better informed, it makes you look like, a bit of a Walter.

WALLY Lewis is one of, maybe THE best players to ever grace our great game and he deserves the respect of fans and pseudo fans alike, something which you are not showing.

If everyone on hear called you Jeanette, you mat get upset

Thanks, it wouldn't surprise me is some SL owners were investing in CVC.

In a way it makes sense, a VC is more likely tohave the combined interests at heart,rather than individual clubs. Interesting times ahead.