Nice piece of getting the record straight there. Leigh also didn't come bottom when they got relegated and these two events showed how utterly damaging the Blake Solly/Nigel Wood system was that went on far too long and had to be dismantled before this pending SKY deal.

I could sit down and try to work out how much money that stupid system (a system that was first tried by the Swiss soccer league and failed, a system that Scottish soccer looked at and totally rejected) cost the game. It certainly involved giving over £16,000,000 to the Championships to run the ridiculous MPG thing.

SKY are not interested in the Championship so their SKY money will be no more. Some people think they can go somewhere else for a deal but there is no chance of that either especially if the second tier of Supereague is created that would accommodate the bigger Championship clubs. The advent of the massive SKY deal and it's effect on the game was fascinating, but this new deal may prove to be even more "interesting" whether anyone believes it's what the game needs or conversely it's the last thing the game needs.

How many clubs will go and will the RFL even go in it's current form?

Quote ="WestEndThinker" [uwow[/u '" Why the amazement? Surely you didn't miss this?. https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/5610037/ ... tier-plan/

Quote ="WestEndThinker" [uwow[/u '" Why the amazement? Surely you didn't miss this?. https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/5610037/ ... tier-plan/

It blows my mind that anyone would look at a mid-table Championship side with no home and think "wow what unprecedented help they received". You've no idea how bonkers that sounds, and in any case its a very selective view of what has been done to the club.

We are 'bitter' because we've been the plaything of the RFL for more than a decade, who's virtually every cack-handed move has further damaged the club. Where every consortium or person of wealth that comes forward is rejected in favour of someone with half a chip shop. Any "help" we may have received from the RFL has been cancelled out a thousand-fold by the directly harmful decisions also made by the RFL.

Quote ="Donnyman"Why the amazement? Surely you didn't miss this?. https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/5610037/ ... tier-plan/ '" That is an old article, plus Gary Carter (who I hear is a good bloke) is not the best source of information. The sensational headlines always seem to get priority over the reliable ones in the Sun. The ideas is not the worse one. In the end I do think there needs to be a line drawn between the full time and part time parts of the game. However, if clubs want to stump up the cash required for a playing squad up to the salary cap then let them into the full time structure with automatic P&R if it is big enough for two leagues. You already need £500k to enter League 1, so are we just haggling over price for Super League?

Quote ="Donnyman"Why the amazement? Surely you didn't miss this?. https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/5610037/ ... tier-plan/ '" That is an old article, plus Gary Carter (who I hear is a good bloke) is not the best source of information. The sensational headlines always seem to get priority over the reliable ones in the Sun. The ideas is not the worse one. In the end I do think there needs to be a line drawn between the full time and part time parts of the game. However, if clubs want to stump up the cash required for a playing squad up to the salary cap then let them into the full time structure with automatic P&R if it is big enough for two leagues. You already need £500k to enter League 1, so are we just haggling over price for Super League?

You did read the post from McBully regarding the "chosen 12 cutting the rest adrift" and response from g_balls ?

When your beloved Bulls were riding high in SL and winning plenty, they didn't give a damn about ANYONE and would happily have seen the "franchise" system made permanent.
g_balls was absolutely right that Rovers worked extremely hard to regain a place in SL (twice) and that they (Rovers) were not chosen and as for my comment about McBully being bitter - are you really suggesting that he isn't ?

You suggest that Bradford have been the "plaything" of the RFL for over a decade but, did they or have they forced their "help" upon Bradford or, have those previous owners of Bradford been all to willing to take the help.

Some of us and I'm sure you too, can remember the tramendous fund raised by the fans and sporting world to try and save the Bulls - it was indeed an incredible effort but, this "pot" was literally thrown away by those "running" the club.

Lets hope that your (Bradfords) future is better and that they play for and earn their chance of promotion.
Reading the article from Mr Sawyer, he's certainly putting the case for Bradford's return to SL and hoping that they "are judged on the last 13 months" and not on the past.

McBully has gone on record acknowledging the faults of Bradford in the past and I am happy to do so too. But that surely does that mean we are not allowed to mention what's going on right now? Rovers have earned their place in SL, but I think the gripe is with Hudgell not Hull KR. His distasteful spat with Chalmers, was partly about a clash of personalities (Chalmers is a gobe admittedly), but also because Chalmers publicly and persistently sought to stand up for the championship and C1 clubs in the face of the levels of self-interest we've never seen before.

I won't give an exhaustive account of the demise of Bradford but you are of course correct that those who were at the club itself are not blameless. The money raised by the whole game for Bradford many years ago under Peter Hood was a wonderful thing and I'm sure we all remain very grateful for it. He did indeed monumentally eff that up and we went bust anyway. That's a case of our own failings.

On the flip side, as I'm afraid I'll say ad nauseum, we had backers actively wanting to take control at Bradford worth millions, and each time they were rejected. That helped install a cycle of failure.

The very last part of your post really is interesting.
If these backers were willing and as wealthy as you suggest, why on earth were they "rejected" ?

Exactly! These were people who the administrator were willing to accept but the RFL weren't. One consortia featuring people involved with Wasps RFC were really advanced, had met all the players to get them on board rather than looking for other clubs, had registered bulls companies at companies house etc. They absolutely knew they had the best bid and had no inkling the RFL would instead opt to bring in someone they'd used as a "fix-it" man in the past, and that man was Andrew Chalmers. No money but a traditional RFL loyalist. That didn't work out great as he went completely renegade.

Its all fishy if you ask me and gives the impression that the RFL have had a specific vision for Bradford for quite a while, I just haven't a clue what it is.

Aside from the off-field dealings the RFL did with prospective owners (like they have been mentioned above regarding the Wasps consortium and putting Chalmers in place of actual money men) what on field help did the RFL give us?

After liquidation a team is normally relegated immediately and start the season in the league below. We were forced to stay in the Championship even though at the time the majority were 'happy' to go into League 1. But we were forced to stay, given an unprecedented 12 point deduction (no team had ever had this before) and was not allowed to sign players in time for the 2017 season so we were forced to go with kids and had the 2016 squad stripped apart during this time. Even though we should have been in League 1 with 0 point deduction as relegation would have been punishment enough. Thankfully the likes of Leeds helped us out by loaning us 4 players (Jordan-Roberts, Hallas, Lilley and Oledzki) just so we could field a team. Where was this 'help' from the RFL.

In addition to this there have been numerous times where we have been in administration (full fault goes to the owners) but then punished by not receiving a fair share of the TV money. I'm sure Omar Khan was told by the RFL that in order to takeover he had to sacrifice a portion of the central funding (why would you punish a club with financial problems by denying them money that is rightfully theirs? makes no sense). I would have been happy if this central money got reinvested into grassroots rugby as would most Bulls fans, but instead the greedy owners of SL voted to share that money between themselves, putting Bradford at an even bigger disadvantage. Again I ask what 'help' did we get?

The only viable thing the RFL have essentially 'helped' in is taking over the Odsal lease. However in recent years it's been shown that although the cash injection at the time was good, the overall long term repercussions of this have been bad for both the Bulls and the RFL.

I just wish other fans would take their rose tinted glasses off for two minutes and actually look at all this. If you change the words Bradford Bulls to a Wakefield/Hull KR/Salford etc I don't think fans would be too quick to state the RFL 'helped' them.

It's just like this supposed 12th team. Regardless of who it is (London, Leigh or Fev deserve it) they will have the financial disadvantage that Bradford had except this time the governing body is SL rather than RFL. They would operate on less central money (why? every club should get an equal share), no doubt the money they miss out on would be redistributed to the other 11 teams causing more financial disadvantage. Plus a lesser time to build an SL squad, putting them at a disadvantage on the field. It's why I don't really want Bradford to get the 12th spot. It is a poison chalice. The 12th club is destined to fail or be whipping boys.

Sorry for the rant. It's just really frustrating seeing other teams fans having a go at Bradford when the governing body at the time had a huge hand in who took over and in essence the financial problems that occurred after. Not exactly a 'help'.

Just a shame because in my opinion we have the best sport in the world. And a proper governing body with the sports interest at heart would be ideal for the game, not having SL clubs run the show as it inevitable ends in self preservation rather than the benefit of the sport. For what it's worth I'd have a 14 team Super League including Leigh, Toulouse and York/Bradford. With plans to expand to 16 (like the NRL) within 5 years (York/Bradford, Newcastle etc). I don't think having all 3 of Wakefield, Castleford and Featherstone would be viable, would be great if it was but not sure it would work.

Anyway, back on topic. If the Sky deal is reduced, Elstone has failed massively and in my opinion it's a disgrace that the lower league gets less money whilst SL's stays the same (depending on the worth of the Sky deal). £400k down the drain. We need a unified governing body which will initially consolidate the sport to ensure we survive, then can try to take us forward.

I envisage Bulls getting in SL in the first announcement next month and a couple of months later another announcement that there will be no relegation in 2021, despite Robert Elstone's recent quote stating otherwise. The sport needs some form of stabilization after Covid and we could even see promotion to SL in 2022 and 2023 (with no relegation) taking the league to 14. Magic fixture plus 13 home and 13 away games totaling 27 rounds which would certainly be the fans preferred choice.

There won't be a "poisoned chalice" and my guess would be that Leigh (2022) followed by London or York (2023) will make the step up.

But then why not come out and say that? It would make sense to make that public. It would allow the lower SL clubs to rest easier and maybe even spend less next season knowing there would be no relegation so could sure up finances.

It would allow the 12th club to recruit shrewdly over this off season and not spend wildly to stay up before being told there's no relegation.

It would allow the other Championship clubs to build over the next two years to see who gets spots 13 and 14 so they know what they are aiming for.

And for those clubs that aren't anywhere near such as Whitehaven, Sheffield, Dewsbury, Batley etc could consolidate their finances over the next 3 seasons knowing they ain't going up and can then build towards 2024 where promotion/relegation may take place again. If promotion/relegation didn't take place in 2024 and SL became an NRL like closed shop then at least the Championship/League 1 clubs could use the next 4 years to consolidate and build a really good Championship league in it's own right.

The dictatorship of SLY rides again. Lets throw a lifeline to the Bulls. What happened to expansion? The M62 corridor? SL just killed the game...…………..

Can't see how SKY was involved in the whole 2017 season scandal in the post you quoted considering SKY don't care about the Championship or League 1. Or how SKY was involved in the SL club vote to take our funding and distribute amongst themselves? Or how SKY was involved in the vetting process for our owners which prevented people with money taking over in favour of Marc Green and later in Andrew Chalmers? Honestly can't even see SKY being involved in the potential return of Bradford. If the Bulls do get the 12th spot it's entirely to the benefit of the other SL teams as we do take a very good away following and with the 'return' to SL I can see us taking a fair few. The big teams will all have 10-15k gates against us at home, and the likes of Hull and Wakefield would benefit from a Bradford away following. But people forget we aren't the massive club we once was. It won't be like the good old days of 20k crowds and sell outs. It will still be a better following that most but not mega. As I said, Toulouse, Leigh or Featherstone deserve that 12th spot.

I'm an expansionist, I want the game to grow. I was gutted that Toronto failed like it did, but genuine expansion I'm all for. Catalans for a while did it well. Had a core of French players then rounded the squad out with Aussies. However that's flipped in more recent times. At the moment for me, Toulouse, York, Newcastle are the best 'expansion' clubs. But I'm liking the work West Wales are doing, squad pretty much full of Welsh players and trying to do it properly albeit a few spankings on the way.

M62 corridor does need fortifying and building at the moment especially in the current climate. Financially clubs are struggling (except the big money backed clubs) and if that means we sacrifice expansion for the short term in order to consolidate and build then so be it.

SL by appointing Elstone is killing the game. What has he done in his time (assuming the new SKY deal is less) which effectively kills the lower leagues. Wasn't it Elstone who took the Magic Weekend to Liverpool which was considered a failure. Hence why it's back at Newcastle? I'm happy to be proved wrong but everything Elstone was paid to do, he's failed or is failing on?

Forgive me as it's been a long day but I can't understand what your point was or at least what you meant by it?

Bitter? You're never off this site talking about the Bulls.

BTW Bradford Bull have never finished bottom either whereas Wakey once finished bottom with 6 points.

I for one do not want Bradford in SL, fake team nowadays, awful ground, even more awful village near Leeds.

This idea that the money raised came from the whole game is utter nonsense. The vast majority came from the 'pledge' scheme with some notable contributions from the Chairman at Widnes. The buckets were a total embarrassment whose contribution was tiny. During a similar situation at Wakefield the fans point blank refused to contribute to the saving of their own club let alone the Bulls.

I enjoyed all your Bradford posts and analysis, very interesting indeed very informative and of course your analysis of SKY that they are not in any way controlling the game was also bang on. The promotion of the club in order for it to bring a large paying fanbase back into Superleague is understandable when crowds have gone down in recent years, however all the indications are and all the bets are Bulls would be likely to just go straight back down.

I cannot see this for one second. To ride roughshod over so called "more deserving clubs" to place Bulls in SL for their large fan base, on reduced SKY money that may well help a bottom place finish and relegation then allow them to dissapear back to the Championship has no logic, and is probably an insult to the Superleague chairmen who simply are not stupid. Nor are those who are running the Bulls at this present time.

There is a regular assumption that the current set up will just go on and on despite the Elephant in the room of the new SKY deal. It's a fact that a new format of a 2x10 club SL was not just suggested but voted on. It's a fact that so called expansion was tried but the final analysis of this by people engaged to look at the validity of overseas clubs decided that such clubs add nothing to the game here, but certainly take away players and erm.......

[uProvide no away fans.[/u

So it's fairly easy to stand back and see that a new SKY deal will lead to a new set up and that may continue the work of dismantling the geographical expansion of the game (for thats all it was no new players or new TV deals came in), it may change the line up of Superleague 2022, and above all it may include Bradford Bulls exemption from relegation at the end of 2021. I don't think for a second that Nigel Wood is organising for Bradford to boost crowds in Superleague 2021 and then just slide back to Championship oblivion......

peddling the Bradford myth, again?

Just to correct you, the collections/ donations at Wakefield were deliberately kept away from the club and put in trust for the incoming administration, if not it would have been spaffed away by the doomed previous owners.
I think many suggested that Bradford should have done the same but, IIRC they chose to try and use the monies to try and plug some holes in the sinking ship - a HUGE mistake, which cost Bradford a huge amount of good will.

one of the rare occurrences where we agree, Wakefield have a planning submission in to extend Belle Vue, Bradford want promoting because the RFL own their ground. I would rather see York added to SL than Bradford, they gave us sponge fingers and a remote control car for the kicking tee... more crass than class!

Inventing your own myth there

He should have put that the RFL want Bradford promoting so that they can collect some rent on their "asset"

How much?

Isn't it the case that Supporters Trust actually advised against raising money to pay the clubs debts and that a buyer came in and came to an agreement with the creditors.

And you still came bottom which the Bulls never have. Your complaints about the Bulls possibly, and against the advice of many experienced supporters (me included) going into SL is allegedly premised on the arbitrary nature of the RL's rules which means they can do what they like. Well you finished bottom and weren't relegated and the other clubs weren't promoted on merit either.

Thanks mate, just blows my mind that people on here genuinely think the RFL have 'helped' over the years. They would have helped if they stuck to their own rules regarding liquidation etc. And if people think SKY are controlling the game then they are delusional. SKY may say to SL we want to show a 12 team comp. Everything else is down to SL and the RFL. £40million is pocket change to SKY and that's what our current TV deal is. If they genuinely cared they would just give the same deal next time (technically might be lower in todays money in terms of inflation etc) but yet they are giving a reduced deal. It's down to the SL and RFL how that money is then distributed. SKY hold the rights to Champ and League 1 yet only show Summer Bash and Million Pound Game. Why not a big regular season game? End of the day, SKY's interests are in Football, NFL, Cricket and F1 as they are more lucrative and have their own dedicated channels. RL is just an afterthought unfortunatley.



The thing is, these days we don't have a [ilarge[/i fanbase. We have a faithful base of support which happens to just be bigger than a lot of Champ clubs and some SL sides. But it's far from large. In 2019 Widnes had a fair few crowds bigger than ours, albeit we did have a 6k and a few 5k crowds before a 7k crowd for the 'last game at Odsal'. Even Leigh had a couple of 5k crowds. When they were in SL in 2017 Leigh regularly got 6k-7k crowds with a couple that were 8k-9k. Their lowest I think was like 4,950 against Wakey. Arguably in terms of fans Widnes and Leigh would be good shouts. Not sure how they both travelled though in all fairness. The thing is, the track record of Elstone, SL and the RFL is that they never think things through. Everything seems to be geared to the short term gains. So it wouldn't surprise me if they parachuted in Bradford for 2021. Clubs get money for away crowds. Bradford get a few games on air. Bradford vs Leeds is back three times. Maybe 4. Money makers, cash cows. Then Bradford finish bottom and go down.

I agree with you that maybe the SL chairmen aren't that stupid. But they have proven in the past that they are that greedy that they may just see Bradford as a way to boost their finances from the gate and gain money from the reduced central finding that Bradford would have to 'sacrifice' for the 12th SL spot. Who knows what the people running the Bulls are like? We don't really know much, just like Hood, Khan, Green, Moore, Chalmers and Lowe. We didn't know what they were going to be like. Everyone liked Khan and Green. Yes, under Green we were relegated (poor squad) yet had one of the best seasons in 2015 and nearly got promoted again but lost to Wakefield. It wasn't until after that it was revealed he was a right crook. Chalmers said all the right things, built us up from League 1, got Kear in (a masterstroke tbf) everyone loved him except SL chairmen, then after he'd gone it was revealed he didn't have money. Didn't pay pensions etc.

All I 'know' about Wood is that he pretty much chose the name [iBlue Sox[/i for Halifax which went down like a lead balloon. Then when he was Chief Executive didn't they get relegated, come under all sorts of financial troubles? The as head of RFL he obviously didn't do a great job, got paid off. Don't have a clue what he's doing as CEO of International Rugby League. So not a great track record. Yet has been allowed to take over the Bulls. Sawyer to be fair I think has done a good job with Dewsbury but he'll had over to Wood soon. Who again, doesn't have money?



I hope there is a restructure in RL. In my opinion there needs to be. But when it happens. We need to stick with it. For the past 11 years we have chopped and changed systems. 14 team SL. One up, one down. Playoff system for SL as it makes money and the GF is the biggest event of the year, 1st in Championship goes up. I understand that this has 'failed' in the past as teams have come up and gone back down and gone bust. But that's down to the individual club to not do that. It's only fair to reward on field success. Expansion can come later to make it a 16 team game ala NRL if we can.

The only way I would accept Bradford taking SL. Is if they have had this guarantee. One year reduced funding (unfortunately this will be non-negotiable, it shouldn't happen regardless of the team, the 'pie' should be shared equally), whipping boys but at the end there will be no relegation for you. Then for 2022, two more teams will join the SL (maybe top 2 in 2021 Champ, or top 1 plus 1 'expansion' like York/Toulouse). Then 2022 features relegation and promotion. I do see your point about Wood organizing Bradford to go up, just to come back down and I sincerely hope your right.

Sorry for the long post guys! I just find it mental that a 12th spot opens in the top division and it should be a time for excitement, ambition, teams wanting that spot. It should be a fair crack at the top level. An open and clear plan for the future and instead we have worry, teams not wanting to apply. A disadvantage to the team coming up. An outsider looking in would genuinely think the SL is an 'old boys' club and very greedy/self serving. And in my own opinion it's an absolute disgrace that TWO clubs voted for the 12th team to have even less money (£800,000 I believe) than they are getting. Think that on it's own shows which teams are struggling and are scared for their place.

Oh dear
You are still crying over the MPG defeat to Trinity, a game that was an integral part of the structure at that time, where despite Trinity being mickey poor, you (Bradford) still couldn't beat them and we had the infamous James Lowes "dummy spit" after the game.
Sounds like you want those rules changing too, to help Bradford get back into SL.

FWIW it was an awful system and I'm glad that it's gone.

I totally agree about the RFL and it's ability to run the show "properly" and no doubt, just as I stated previously, this could very well end up in the courts.
When the decision o the 12th club is finally made, there will be 7 (now 6) very unhappy clubs and their supporters.

For me, Toulouse offer something different and Fev are the "rightful" candidates, having been losing finalists last season.
Leigh also look to be a "solid" candidate.

I guess we will have to wait and see but, The RFL and SL have seemingly found a way to alienate huge numbers of RL fans and at a time when we need every last one of them and that's before the TV deal puts another nail in the RL coffin.

We could get rid of Elstone and share his "costs" to some of the lower league clubs, after all, it doesn't look like he will be improving on the previous TV deal (understatement)