Loiner was talking about the CC semi at Huddersfield.

I take it you have excluded the CC from those stats?

A touchy Wigan fan, never! Good job I didn't post this on your forum, you'd have banned me by now, and your continued exclusion of the CC speaks volumes



Could care less about Leeds/Wigan win/loss ratio, well I could but it's not relevant here and I haven't mentioned it once.

All I've said is ST has dropped some real clangers (on the rare occasion he actually attempts to go for the ball) but he goes plenty of good, sometimes amazing things which is why i've said repeatedly i'd have him in the first 13 every time.

But not at full back, he's a disaster waiting to happen.

This is probably England's best chance to get something off Australia for the first time in my 25years of watching the game.

Most of that time, the England team has been psychologically beaten before they have even got onto the pitch. That aura of invincibility is not there with this Aussie team. Without the golden stars that have defined the past 20 years, England should be full of confidence before they go onto the pitch.

Don't talk to Wigan fans until after Xmas at least mate, they're still very bitter and rightly disappointed in ending the season with zero trophies out of a possible 4. Must be hard for them.

Back on topic. That wasnt a great display from England by any means, and although Australia got well beaten by NZ, they would have hammered us on Saturday. It would be very naive to play the same squad and bank on improving, it wouldnt be enough. And all this talk of this is our best chance....didnt we say that last year? Yes Australia are weaker but so are England.

Prior to this tournament kicking off I was all for Hardaker to FB and Tomkins to 6. After the first game I thought Widdop and Smith made some very very clever plays, both very composed and effective in stages. It would be very hard on Smith or Widdop to be dropped to make way for Hardaker. However I still cannot see how Zak cannot be in that side. It wasn't a great display, Zak needs to be in there, maybe off the bench as utility with a view to shuffling the halves/fb as and when needed.
Bottom line, Make Hardaker a spot in that side.

Also the back rowers - very poor. Whitehead and SOL in, Westerman and J Tomkins out.

Previous Stats suggest nothing in the international game. How much can you tell about a group of players who don't play with each other regularly. Any one if them players could win the game on the day... Or mess up.
Hardaker at full back.. Why? He's one of the best we have to offer. However Tomkins is the one of the best too. Given how important this game is Tomkins England experience at full back is more important than ever.
Hardaker misses out and it's just bad luck we can't squeeze him in because he's a class act.
McNamara needs very little change to the side of last week. We need to grow as a team in such a small tournament to be ready should we get to the final. Changing key positions around would be silly in my opinion.

This match is destined to be one of the most exciting contests in years. Better than any Super League game, with obviously so much hanging in the balance for the nation of England.

The Australian centres would not have been first choice had all Australian players been available, but they were still very good, which shows Australia's depth of talent. However a fit Jack Reed would have been more useful counter in defence for England than Shenton.

However the big irreplaceable loss for Australia, apart from the specialist props, is Johnathan Thurston, whose brilliance has been one of the cornerstones of Australian success for the past decade. Thurston's absence has hurt Australia in attack and defence more than England's loss of Sam Burgess has hurt England.

There are lots of Australian props running around in the NRL, just because Tim Sheens doesn't want to pick them is the reason they don't have specialist props available in the 4N squad, you pick what's available to you irrespective of their ability or you choose to play players out of position. Sheens has made his choice!

I'd love to have Keith Senior in the left centre but age and injury forced him to retire, Thurston is missing for similar reasons, tough!

Lastly, Leeds fans bagging and bigging to shoehorn Hardaker into the team is funny!

I’d make as few changes as possible to the side given that they need to get more familiar with each other as a team.

If O’Loughlin is fit he comes in for Westerman who I would drop to the bench replacing Ferres.

I’d be tempted to bring in Whitehead but only for an injured player. He misses too many tackles for my liking despite being a great attacking player.

I’d only bring Hardaker in if Tomkins gets injured.

No. The stats include CC games.

The stats include CC games. HTH.

Nothing to be touchy about.

You made a ridiculous comment that was clearly wrong to try and prove your view about where Tomkins should play. The stats prove it. You should have picked something else.

Why ?

He's a better, all-round full-back than Tomkins currently. Far better defensively and not much to choose on attack.

Its not about them head to head. Its what they can bring to the side together.

Tomkins stays in the squad without doubt, as he is better in the attacking line than what Hardaker is. Defence and kick returns Id have Hardaker every day of the week as he doesn't pussy out like we have seen Tomkins do on many occasions. But Tomkins in the line finding the killer pass to breach the Aussie defence is something that is vital at the top level, and he does this better than Hardaker. McNamara needs to find a way of using them both and we will be solid.

If Smith was a bit more robust in defence I'd say a logical solution to get Hardaker in the squad would be to put Smith in to hooker. He's played there a bit in his career and apart from in defence I think he's quite well suited to the position. His distribution is good and he can still get his kicking game going from there.

As it stands though I think the only way in for Hardaker is at left centre. Tomkins needs to be more committed going for high balls for sure but other then that his game was very sound.

I said all along in the lead up to the samoa game i wanted to see Hardaker at full back and Tomkins and Widdop in the halves and i had big reservations on smith at this level.To give smith his due he was one of our better players and has justified his place this week.

Despite ST's shaky moments i do feel he has to play no matter what so its as you were for this weekend no doubt.

You only need to look at Saturday to see that Tomkins certainly doesn't bottle out of making tackles. He can't keep letting balls bounce in defence though.

I think the reality is Hardaker will miss out again but it's a waste of a guy who I believe is our best back outside of Tomkins and Hall.

I never advocated omitting Tomkins as he has an attacking threat that will be needed and cannot be ignored.

But Hardaker is definitely the best full-back available to England so it's Tomkins who needs to shift positions, possibly to half-back alongside Widdop.

agree with the point about westerman - he offers versatility on the bench as he can play as an extra prop, second row or loose forward. he would also be useful on the bench in case lockers breaks down mid game

Bringing Zachary Hardaker in for Michael Shenton is the way to go.

Elliot Whitehead must play off the bench.

I must have been watching a different Hardaker to everyone else. This bloke sounds like a combination of Greg Inglis and Billy Slater.

The one I’ve seen is alright but not really a creative ball handler. We need Tomkins to provide that injection of creativity in the backline that he’s done for the Warriors where he’s played a key part in lots of their tries. Sure, he’s shaky under the bomb but I’d be very reluctant to make a change that would affect the whole set up of the side just so we have someone who’s better in the bomb catching dept.

Hardaker in the centres sounds alright in theory but he was shifted from that position at Leeds because he wasn’t good enough there. Putting him in that position to mark Jennings or Walker would be insanity given his lack of gametime in that position.

No fullback has looked good under the bomb in the whole tournament so far. Including Inglis. Lockyer and Johns were commenting on how difficult it is to take a high kick as the modern balls move around in the air so much.

As a last line of defence I thought Tomkins cleared up kicks well and he did very well to half stop Pritchard in full flow.

I'd bring Sarginson in for Shenton, as he's more dangerous with the ball and makes a lot more yards helping the forwards out.

Whitehead for Ferres on the bench. Whitehead would add abit more punch. But I wouldn't want to start him due to the amount of missed tackles he makes.


Push Clarke to 9, O'Loughlin to start at 13 and then have Westerman on the bench for Utility value and O'Loughlin can give Clarke 10 mins breather at some point.

S Tomkins
Hall
Sarginson
Watkins
Charnley
Widdop
Smith
G Burgess
Clarke
Graham
Farrell
Tomkins
O'Loughlin

Hill
T Burgess
Whitehead
Westerman

*Forgot Smith!

Hardaker on the wing seems obvious to me. Hall and Hardaker are both very good under the bomb and can take some of the pressure off Tomkins and if necessary move to FB for the kick.

Gives us huge flexibility and pretty much covers the entire back line and I'm not sure we lose all that much compared to any of the specialist wingers we have. The Aussies and kiwis would be playing him without a shadow of a doubt if the were us.

If Hardaker ever did add a creative passing game he would be a match for any fullback in the world. He is a great broken field runner and in my opinion the best defensive FB in Rugby right now.

Tomkins at fullback is too good to shift
Hardacre looks good in broken running but lacks creativity

If you must play Hardacre out him on the wing but I'd say leave him off

As usual the issue is not who to pick from the squad but the squad picked
There's half a dozen better back rows in England than in the squad than Farrell and J Tomkins

Hardaker on the wing isn’t a bad shout. He could swap with Tomkins for the kicks like the Warriors wingers sometimes do.

I'd be interested to know whom those half a dozen are.