Wane has to take some of the blame. Remember he encourages his players to go out and hurt the opposition. Flower was just following Wane's thuggish game plan. Didn't come to the microphone to congratulate the winners. Poor loser, poor sportsmanship.

I agree, Wane winds their players up too tight. Stick to the rugby for the full 80 minutes they would have won tonight.

Wane is damaging the Wigan brand imo.

But what does that say about the rest of the teams this season?

This thread appears to be getting sidetracked by fans of the team which finished 7th in SL.

I'm delighted for saints (especially after the flower incident) but most of all for Wellens, what a servant to the Saints and the game.

Also as a Leeds fan, I have sort of felt sorry for saints at grand finals

Needless to say we are all very happy chappies tonight, but as someone once said 'Never write off the Saints'

(Unless its Leeds in the final

)

Saints fans (and every other RL fan, judging from this board

) should actually be thanking Flower.

Judging from that game if Wigan had been at full strength Saints wouldn't have stood a chance. They offered little in attack and only just overcame Wigan's 12 men, who were the better team, throwing the ball around more and playing the better rugby, but being a man down was a hurdle too far against strong defence. Still, fair play, Saints won with key players missing, they ground it out and can call themselves Champions.

Poorest SL Champions ever? Not sure I can think of anyone else worthy of that title.

Stupid from Flower. Rash first punch, truly disgraceful second punch. Rightfully a long ban and hefty fine coming his way. I feel for the lad, he's been outstanding all year and tonight was out of character, but a that doesn't excuse punching a prone man. Watching it again I even think he knows it as he throws it; he hesitates and it's more of a jab than a full-blooded haymaker, but the red mist still won him over and he'll pay his dues.

While we're discussing 'stupid' let me just mention McCarthy-Scarsbrook. Actually embarrassed for him. Not that he'll care right now of course.

I don't think LMS is the brightest. But who cares really?

pleased for them and pleased for nathan brown.
it was supposed to be the most one sided final in the history of rugby league and saints, although i thought they looked clueless in the first half just had enough to come through.
wigan played well enough but saints wanted it so much more i thought.
SKY kept banging on about how amazing and incredible wigan were and how they showed spirit etc, well i thought saints showed as much, if not more, wigan had 2 very good half backs out there, saints had a veteran full back and 2nd rower... but SKY failed to give any credit to saints until the last 5 minutes, in fact it was phil clarke who stood up for saints when hemmings and stevo were waxing lyrical about wigan.

i admire what wigan have done and wane gets the best out of his players without doubt, but you can't help but dislike parts of their game, i wonder if wane will regret his words pre match when he said "they will do whatever it takes to win the game", it seems using acts of thuggery to take out their opponents only recognised half back is what it needed but failed.

a good intense game though and many congratulations to st helens!

You can't say that with any certainty at all tbh, Saints were already threadbare in the Halves and then 3 minutes in they had Lance Hohaia mugged by Flower, so they then had to reshuffle, which no doubt affected their attacking play tonight.

Not sure what McCarthy-Scarsbrook said was that embarrassing, bloke was just amped from winning the GF, I'll give him a pass tonight.

Bah, if it hadn't been for the incident, we'd have had our only remaining half back conscious and been able to do more with the ball.
Flower being on the pitch wouldn't have stopped our big men grinding you down once they'd decided to step up to the plate.

Worst champions? Who bloody cares. If we're so poor, you should have been able to see us off.

i actually laughed when LMS did that, good on him, serves them right interviewing an emotional pumped up bloke minutes after experiencing winning a big final for the first time.

did i hear stevo say at one point that wigan were hampered by mcilorum not playing and that it would have made a big difference, nothing like taking away from saints' efforts is there?

And what if Saints had been at full strength?

Wigan - worst Grand Finalists ever? couldn't even beat a team playing with no recognised halves for 77 minutes.

Flower has been our best prop all year. He's taken down and run through plenty of big men, he was a big loss for us, especially as you say with your big men coming at us.

IMO, a bigger loss than Hohaia, who've I've always seen as error prone both in attack and defence, and I've seen slated to this effect on the Saints board by Saints fans many times. If anything Saints are a steadier and more consistent side without him. Walsh, on the other hand, has been a big loss for you all year.

And I didn't say you were 'poor', but that I can't think of a poorer team to win the Grand Final. Clearly, still a strong side and a tough defence to break down, especially with 12 men. However, if you can name me a worse 'Champion' side, I'll retract.

Hohaia's not great, but he's all we had left and has contributed greatly this year when we've needed him.

Flower wouldn't have made a difference against the Saints tonight. It went the same way a many "ugly" games this year that we've won. On those occasions Saints turn up with the right resolve and the big men do the rest. That's why we took home the LLS too, beating all the big teams on the way.
Top of the league and GF winners. If we're not worthy, someone should really have stopped us somewhere along the way.

Saints - No Wilkin, No Hohia, No Lomax, No Walsh and apparently no chance.

Wigin - No trophy!!

the most one sided final in the modern era it was going to be- very disappointed that it wasn't

Well, our pack took you to the cleaners back in April. But let's go back to the basic difference tonight: 13 vs 12.

Halfbacks, props, whatever, you scraped home despite us being down to 12 but still the stronger team for long periods. The only difference in the end was you always had that extra man in defence which made it hugely difficult to penetrate - and still we came close. 78 minutes vs 12 men and a weakened pack? Of course you should win.

I've no problem with you winning it, your boys done good. Just.

that's like saying that wigan also had the advantage of playing 2 very good half backs against an ageing full back and a 2nd rower though? so the fact that wigan, despite being down to 12 men, but had the advantage of having a very good halfback pairing ,that should have seen them through?

No it's not. It's like saying the only difference in the end was Saints always had that extra man in defence which made it hugely difficult to penetrate.

Which is exactly what I said.

Don't be daft. There is no way Saints would have won that game if Flower hadn't been sent off...

Why not? Wigan couldn't score against Saints in the last league game either. Clearly struggle to break down Saints superior defending.

Tonight Saints had the snake by the jaw from behind. It could no longer bite us. We starved it until it died. But we could have sliced and diced it had we needed to, but why risk being bitten when you are in complete control?