My friends who I regularly socialize with on a weekend could be considered as middle class and don't find rugby league appealing one bit and have declined my offer to see a live game many times. To them it's just men running about aimlessly on a field for eighty minutes. That and they don't like watching sport in general anyways.

You will never be able to cater to everybody. But there is a massive market being missed out on for the stupid reason grass roots rugby isn't set up correctly in that market.

Let's be realistic here - RL will NEVER be a national sport and will NEVER be anywhere as big as Rugby Union... There simply isn't the demand or interest in it.

Before I get shot down for my comment, I do think we have a great product, BUT our roots are too deeply entrenched in the working class, northern population that presently follow our sport.

I think we will always have our moments (recent World Cup semi, the odd domestic final) when sporting neutrals will acknowledge what a good product we have when it is played at a high standard, but the vast majority of those neutrals will just go back to following RU, cricket, cycling, sailing, etc, simply because the game at domestic level is not of the quality that can attract these people to go full time in following a side.

Spot on. Amateur and schools rugby is the entry point for both future fans and players. At least 6 of my friends regularly go to Twickers to watch England. Only because they played Union at school. That's why I get so annoyed at the backwards attitude at so many amateur clubs.

And a Defeatist attitude won't change that. The reason there isn't a BIG demanded (there is a demand) for it down south because there is not affinity to rugby league and the best way to change that is develop it in to schools with incentives. Majority of people who i know who like to watch union sociably only watch it because they played it in school. To be honest they wouldn't be able to tell you which players came from which amateur clubs unlike most league fans can.

Could you just inform me of how you intend to develop it in schools?..... Its just that in all the schools that I visit, there is less time and effort for overall sport as a whole, due to both cuts and less than enthusiastic teachers, so I'm curious as to how you propose suddenly burdening them with a sport which many will just see as a isation of a sport they already provide for their pupils?

Create school leagues in different districts, Provide those schools with correct equipment, provide coaching for there pupils and P.E teachers, Have cash incentives for Schools depending how they place in those leagues and now a lot of schools are academies they will want it more. Give those kids something to work for a scholarship to a district Academy and then allow those Academies to play each other. There is a pathway right to the top and an easy way to be scouted. Its an opportunity that most kids will never receive and a potential career.

Main incentive for the School=Cash
Main incentive for kids= chance to go on trips and a pathway to regional academies
Main incentive for Parents= See above
Benefit for Rugby league= A country with some affinity to rugby league

Now i know this costs money but its much better to spend money and effort on this than waste it away to clubs that will never get further than they already are.

I'm not buying that. The rugby football-15 scrum is dying a death, they will then have to go to 13-a-side, and their ruck area makes the sport too forward dominated, also it's chaos there, have you played 15-a-side r football?

The product on the pitch is vastly inferior to League.....in fact, it's inferior to most team sports, but that has little bearing on Rita's assumption that Union will always dwarf league in popularity stakes on the world stage. Have the BBC started blowing the 6 Nations trumpet yet? They claim to get 4.5 million as an average for each of their 15 games...slightly more than the RLWC2013 Managed.

The Scrum is a major area of concern in the professional game but it is not problem in the amateur ranks, but I'm keen to know why you think that the supposed demise of the scrum would see Union shed their wing-forwards?

well surely in this day and age when players are threatening to sue about dangerous work environment and long term health issues occurring from it and we all know what scrums do to peoples spines it will soon be out of the game, not even mentioning all the negativity that comes from scrums outside the Uk.

Its a great idea, but if it was that simple then every sport worth its salt would be doing the exact same..... Realistically, most schools would simply thank you for your idea, then once you were out of earshot the teachers would shoot it out of the water.

The only way it could work to any extent would be to send your own dedicated coaches into schools - So throw in a few dozen decently paid RFL employees on top of your original proposal and you suddenly see the budget becoming impractical.

That would be the plan to have youth development officers go in to schools spend 6 weeks with the teams and teachers and set them up. I know it would take the right group of people and quite a bit of financing probably more than Rugby league can afford but its the only way school and the next generation are going to have any affinity to rugby league. Also the people you hire to organize and develop this would have to be highly motivated and dedicated, it certainly won't be easy far from it be well worth it.

If rugby football-15 had un-contested scrums then there would be too little space on the pitch, as there would be in-effect two more wing-forwards on the field, so surely then that would then force the IRB to go to 13-a-side, surely.

Ay, the 1 or 2 day a year Welshies come out of the woodwork during the 6 "Nations". It's amazing what brainwashing can achieve.

I doubt it, and the names not Shirley




always amazes me that the 70k+ crowds that international union gets during the 6 nations are considered "part timers" or "corporates" who have no idea what they are watching...let alone the millions who tune in "by accident" but get counted anyway







Insecurity is a curse that afflicts certain types of RL fan......it is a concern that the NHS won't be able to cope if the RLWC Legacy fails to materialise

Ay, insecure, indeed. As B Fittler said a couple of years ago, "We shouldn't doubt ourselves".

It's a fantastic sport that gives the half-backs a genuine chance to shine with ball in hand, that's what attracts me to the sport as a former half-back. And you rarely get lesser skilled forwards trying to disrupt the halfback at ruck.

its obvious your a kiwi who loves his union but has an interest in league so why keep coming on here? I would say i know at least 30 people who go to the 6 nations every year and they hardly if ever talk about the match its always what happened on the day and these are people who used to play union. People go to twickenham because its a fantastic day out and event that a lot of people like to go to, club rugby has nowhere the same backing.

Actually, London Irish Mockney who moved here 4 years ago, hasn't attended a Union game other than internationals since the 1980's, doesn't watch club union on TV unless it's on in a pub and who is a Rabid London Broncos fan.....that Obvious eh


I'd suggest 17k posts on here (majority on Broncos board) would suggest more than an interest.....





cool story bro.....The RFL would bite their own arm off for those 30 attendees, together with the other 81,970 who regularly fill Twickenham at an average of about 50 quid a pop.



....AFAIK, Many amateur union clubs own their own grounds and clubhouses, are actually more of a social club that happens to play Rugby in winter and are not in bad nick. The Professional Clubs are still finding their feet, but are starting to understand the commercial aspect is vital. The real puzzle is how come RL and RU get similar domestic attendances for the Aviva/Superleague,but when it comes to the international stage, one code charges the earth and gets it, whilst the other has to offer tickets for a fiver?

is that a kiwiism?

you have just proven my point. They don't get big crowds at club level but they do at international level because they see it as an event and not a religion like rugby league fans. As the majority of those 81k don't have season tickets and follow club teams around all season they can afford to pay 50quid a ticket. Also population of down south compared to north? And Aviva premiership attendance figures are nowhere near super league figures, they are massively inflated for what ever reason on there reports I watch a lot of union on tv and used to play a fair bit. Also yes people do like to socialize at there local rugby club a bit like they love to socialize at Twickenham.

are you seriously saying the reason club level rugby doesn't draw big crowds is because there still not used to being professional? just because the players never used to get paid the fans still used to pay memberships and entrances fees the club was still ran as a business.

Insecure much?

Are you really going to try and debate that Union lies about their crowds and in fact Superleague get a bigger average? You are seriously the Aviva premiership clubs inflate the attendances so they can pay more tax on the ticket revenue?


Seriously...lol







The Aviva premiership crowds are helped out by the occasional "event" game, in the same way the NRL uses "event" games as well as OTR games to boost their averages. For example, Harlequins RFC averaged 21,046 in 2013 (or a similar figure depending where you get your data) in the Aviva Premiership.....I believe the Stoop holds 14,850......so it was the Boxing day event game that boosted their average that year. Same in the NRL, where the warriors averaged 16,197, but actually it was more like 13,000 at Mt Smart but with "event" games at the Westpac and Eden Park they boosted it.

I still can't believe you think that the sponsors and money men who throw cash at Union do so because those sneaky s at the RFU are inflating attendances...

Why does rugby league need to attract a higher social class of spectators anyway? :S

Regards

King James

watching saracens game last weekend they said the attendance was 16k or around that number it was closer to 12k. Or last season when saracens used there EVENT day towards there attendance. The difference is we are talking about super league never mind NRL and Eden park isn't even close to the same circumstance as union clubs using twickenham.

Who said anything about money or sponsors now stop trying to twist the fact that majority of twickenham fans don't bother following club rugby and really they just use it a social event.

Rugby union has a higher average attendence at club level than rugby league.

Sad but true.

Regards

King James

[uHome attendance averages last completed season (SL 2013 & Aviva Premiership 2012-13)[/u
=#FF00001. Leicester Tigers - 256,687/11 = 23,335
=#FF00002. Harlequins - 219,631/11 = 19,966
=#FF00003. Saracens - 200,871/11 = 18,261
=#0000BF4. Leeds Rhinos - 197,556/13 = 15,197
=#0000BF5. Wigan - 189,084/13 = 14,545
=#FF00006. Gloucester - 154,404/11 = 14,037
=#FF00007. Northampton - 140,414/11 = 12,765
=#FF00008. London Wasps - 129,644/11 = 11,786
=#0000BF9. Hull FC - 151,843/13 = 11,680
=#FF000010. Bath - 126,681/11 = 11,516
=#0000BF11. St Helens - 147,483/13 = 11,345
=#0000BF12. Warrington - 138,232/13 = 10,633
=#FF000013. London Irish - 104,181/11 = 9,471
=#FF000014. Worcester - 102,370/11 = 9,306
=#0000BF15. Bradford Bulls - 111,320/13 = 8,563
=#0000BF16. Catalans - 108,719/13 = 8,363
=#FF000017. Exeter - 91,608/11 = 8,328
=#0000BF18. Wakefield - 103,635/13 = 7,972
=#0000BF19. Hull KR - 97,430/13 = 7,495
=#FF000020. Sale - 80,201/11 = 7,291
=#0000BF21. Huddersfield - 82,790/13 = 6,368
=#0000BF22. Castleford - 81,979/13 = 6,306
=#0000BF23. Widnes - 78,191/13 = 6,015
=#FF000024. London Welsh - 55,990/11 = 5,090
=#0000BF25. Salford - 40,622/13 = 3,125
=#0000BF26. London Broncos - 28,775/13 = 2,213

=#0000BFSuper League Total & Average (2013) = 1,557,659/182 = 8,559
=#FF0000Aviva Premiership Total & Average (2012-13) = 1,662,682/132 = 12,596

Saracens played Toulouse last weekend according to the BBC. 18,838 was the stated crowd. The previous weekend, they were again away, at Gloucester where 13,800 was the recorded attendance.....I have no reason to believe that either figure is made up and nor would I take the opinion of someone watching on TV over these actually officially reported attendances.
Seriously, you should seek help for this level of insecurity.





There is nothing stopping the ESL using "event games" to boost their attendances. The (conveniently ignored) NRL uses them. Eden Park is the national Rugby stadium in New Zealand, as is Twickenham in England.....but IIRC, Saracens used Wembley

I fail to see a valid reason for not including The NZ Warriors OTR games in comparison to Saracens OTR games. I could have been really nasty and used the London Broncos OTR games




Twist what?
You're the one spinning unsubstantiated claims of inflated attendances and trying to explain away actual attendances at Twickenham with tales of your "30 mates". All I've done is say that there is no reason for any sane person to question the announced and published attendances at Union club games more so than anyone would question any other officially reported attendances at other sports.

Rugby Union is so far ahead of Rugby League in the English public psyche it's out of sight. Yes, people are sheep and yes, a great many people at Twickenham are one-game Johnnies, but that doesn't mean they aren't there and it doesn't mean that the RFU won't generate 4 million in ticket revenue alone per game.

The point of Rita's claim earlier in the thread is a valid one......until RL can command the attention and whip up the interest of it's bigger but slower cousin, then it will always play second fiddle. The reality is, that in a round ball dominated country like England, there is never going to be enough room or interest for 2 sets of egg chasers.

It's sad that confused and insecure chaps like you fail to accept this

There are posters here who would have you believe in the sanctity of the RL numbers but for some reason, they are happy to question the Union ones

......Insecurity must be catching