Let's not worry about Yawnion.

Good marketing, competitive prices and genuine support instead of all the moaning and negativity. I've no idea why fans go out of their way to not support the support they follow whether it's a Magic weekend or Internationals

Lets not make RL a sport for victims.

Yet none of that attitude was evident in 95.
I wonder what's changed?

Simple fact is... we don't have a great team. If we did then I'm sure all the England games would sell-out.

RU only became what it is today through the 2003 RUWC.

The England cricket team only became so huge again through the 2005 Ashes series.

A win for England in the 2013 WC infront of a sell-out crowd at Wembley/Old Trafford would see Rugby League take a huge leap forward in this country.

Yes it was.

We had a poor 40k at Wembley for the opening game, and we were fortunate enough to get a win, which then gave the comp a boost.

There was then also the novelty value which attracted crowds like the one at Central Park (26k v Fiji).

Wales were in a different position, playing with players like Jonathan Davies, Allan Bateman, Kevin Ellis, Scott Quinnell etc. and were capable of drawing a crowd in Wales.

The marketing was certainly no better back then, the attitude was similar, except after the first game there was a genuine belief that England could win and become World Champions.

being a Public school product and involved in media and advertising, you'd be surprised at how much more I know about it than you.

I have an email, received from the RFL in early 2009 touting the naming rights for the 4 nations that year for less than it costs to sponsor the match ball at the england v Italy 6 nations game in ROME. I was asked to see if anyone in London would be interested in it........Gillette came in at th 11th hour to rescue them.

The failings of the RFL are simply highlighted by the expertise of the RFU.......there is no conspiracy. Mastercard don't attatch their name to the IRB RWC because their CEO went to Harrow.....,
Heinekens owners didn't all attend Eton together......and as far as I know, the Indian oners of Landrover have no public school connections either.........

I am tired of explaining that all forms of Media now dance to a funding piper.......as in, what attracts attention and advertising (funding) gets most airtime/column inches. The BBC show the challenge cup and get 1.5 million for the final...they average 4.5 million for all 15 games of the 6 nations. The RWC semi featuring wales got 6 million on FTA at stupid oclock in the morning........England in the 4 nations when played down here got 1.8 million......

Rugby League fans need to have a long hard look at themselves before attempting to blame anyone, even the RFL, for the chasm that has opened up between the 2 codes when it comes to revenue and exposure.

Did you even read the rest of my posts or just pick 1 bit out? I've never said that is the one and only reason, nor has anyone on this thread. It is a combination of reasons of which the public school network is but one. You seem to want to deny that public school network plays any part whatsoever in the ability to market the game, I'm not quite sure why when it's plain to see the influence it has. Is it the only reason, no. Is it one of them, yes.

At Huddersfield? Yes. At Wembley? I doubt it very much.

Staggeringly wrong.....so wrong it deserves a new word to describe its very wrongness. "bollxywongy"
The RWC 1987 started the ball rolling......professionalism gave it a massive heave and by the time England won it, Rugby Union was already massive when compared to the M62 Hobby we all love.


Pointless comparison in a debate about the 2 RUGBY codes......but
Define Huge? Same rich companies derided by other posters are the sponsors and corporates......winning helps, but Cricket is cricket and an excuse for 5 day drinking. 20-20 helped as well.....


Yep...same way winning a medal in Curling at the Winter Olympics made that team a household name....

BTW, using your logic, once the Aussies hammer either NZ or England in the final next year, we may as well up sticks and bugger off then



A win for England in the 2013 RLWC would be a start and might even get the team shown on BBC sports personality of the year, but they'd probably lose to the pursuit cycling team of a heavyweight boxer who came second. At which stage another thread will pop up here blaming the piblic schools for the abject failure of Rugby League to command the attention of the british public.




Utter drivel.
Sales people can come up with a multitude of excuses for failing to hit targets, but RL fans in the UK give them a good run for their money.



Your combination of reasons or perfect storm argument holds no water.....the FACTS are"
Saracens RU hired Wembley Stadium for a league game in the Aviva premiership and regardless of "bolloxwongy" accusations of free tickets etc, managed to attract 83,000+ to the game. As far as I know, the Headmasters at Eton and Harrow, nor the past pupils union of these schools, paid for any advertising or promotion. Neither did the Dons of Oxbridge, Sponge bob square pants or the dalai lama....but rather than accept that the marketing team at Sarries are good, RL fans bemoan the "influence" exerted by "them" against "us" to get fans to the game.

Magic weekend by contrast, is a friggin shambles, but if you are to be believed, this is only because the WRFU, Tom Jones and Darth Vader conspired against the event and organised a 100% media black out that even prevented the RFL from paying for promotion....

Seriously, the RFL has the best product and the best intentions, but some RL fans just don't get it. Rather than bitch about it on here, why not buy a ticket and support the game you say you love rather than whining about your misguided sense of injustice.

dunno how rugby union attracts non RU fans to these events but its an amazing effort. Most of the people at the game will probably never watch another RU game.

Now as for rugby league the fans have to take fair share of blame. always moaning about something!

4 nations at wembley was cheap but the usual lot still complained and never made the effort. Magic weekender is in Manchester this year, if we dont sell it out then again the fans will have shown their true colours.

Seriously, what the f[iu[/ick are you on about? I've not bitched or moaned about anything other than state the reasons why I think it's daft and simplistic to compare RFL with RFU marketing without taking into account the different situations of the 2 sports. I've certainly not criticised the RFU or belittled Saracens crowd at Wembley. It is only you who has mentioned any of these things or any sense of injustice.
If you don't think things like playing the sport at school has an effect on interest then I can only conclude you're either incredibly stupid or simply determined to have an argument because it suits your agenda.
Nobody on here has had anything other than praise for the RFU/Saracens marketing, so why are you suggesting otherwise. I suggest you actually read what people have written instead of jumping to your own little preconceived ideas.
I go to RFL events, I support the game, save your patronising attitude for someone else, because to totally dismiss the 2 sports different situations and simply say RFL are too stupid to market properly and the RFU are amazing is, as I said in my first post, simplistic and silly.

WTF...?

I calls it as I sees it:


..and to me, that's a bitching moan if ever I saw one.
More Money, more media, better partners and sponsors, well off london, rah rah piublic school toffs,,,,,,,blah blah blah it's not fair.

As for the RFL being too stupid.......exhibit A:

Richard Lewis, when commenting on the first Magic Weekend, cited expansion as a key reason for the event........but now that's all gone "pete tong", the event is to be Played on the doorstep of 12 of the traditional clubs in the hope of attracting more than 30,000 a day.....wow, expansion.......

Exhibit B:
200,000+ Australians and Kiwis in London at any given time.....so let's play their RLWC games in Warrington, Leeds, Wales and Leeds......Genius.



2 Examples of the RFL being inept at what they do......want another?

Exhibit C:
In 2005, they sent me a breakdown of what they wanted for naming rights for the Tri-nations......my car is worth more than Gillette paid........

The RFL are crap at marketing.....they are crap at everything to do with marketing.......they have employed a marketing GURU whose SELF CLAIM TO FAME IS:

I suspect that Sheikh-Mansour-bin-Zayed-Al-Nahyan and his money had far more to do with the standing of City than this guy, but nothing like setting yourself up for a big fall...is there..and the RFL have given this guy the job of marketing RLWC 2013



The RFL may not be stupid, but they won't be knocking on the door of MENSA any time soon either....

Quote ="Gutterfax"As far as I know, the Headmasters at Eton and Harrow, nor the past pupils union of these schools, paid for any advertising or promotion.'" Hmmmm, it may not be Eton or Harrow but the saffacen Chairman, Nigel Wray, went to Mill Hill. Union ethos and ethics are strong at Mill Hill as evidenced by a scholarship in the name of an ex union international and this : Quote In 2005 the school was one of fifty of the country's leading private schools which were found guilty of running an illegal price-fixing cartel, exposed by The Times, which had allowed them to drive up fees for thousands of parents'" ...not forgetting this: Quote Nigel William Wray was born in London in 1948. His parents had a printing works, which was relocated to Andover when Nigel was young. He became a boarder at Mill Hill School, where he came across his friend Martyn Thomas, now the [former ?Chairman of the Rugby Football Union, a sport with which Nigel was to become very involved later in life.'" Oh and hes a merchant banker as well...More about Nigel and Martyns early yrs here: www.bristol.ac.uk/pace/graduatio ... /wray.html Unless of course, you're suggesting that former public schoolboy and saffacens Chairman Nigel Wray had absolutley no say in the planning and payment of the saffacens at wembley games, it would seem to back the suggestion by Him Re: schooling and interests.

Quote ="Gutterfax"As far as I know, the Headmasters at Eton and Harrow, nor the past pupils union of these schools, paid for any advertising or promotion.'" Hmmmm, it may not be Eton or Harrow but the saffacen Chairman, Nigel Wray, went to Mill Hill. Union ethos and ethics are strong at Mill Hill as evidenced by a scholarship in the name of an ex union international and this : Quote In 2005 the school was one of fifty of the country's leading private schools which were found guilty of running an illegal price-fixing cartel, exposed by The Times, which had allowed them to drive up fees for thousands of parents'" ...not forgetting this: Quote Nigel William Wray was born in London in 1948. His parents had a printing works, which was relocated to Andover when Nigel was young. He became a boarder at Mill Hill School, where he came across his friend Martyn Thomas, now the [former ?Chairman of the Rugby Football Union, a sport with which Nigel was to become very involved later in life.'" Oh and hes a merchant banker as well...More about Nigel and Martyns early yrs here: www.bristol.ac.uk/pace/graduatio ... /wray.html Unless of course, you're suggesting that former public schoolboy and saffacens Chairman Nigel Wray had absolutley no say in the planning and payment of the saffacens at wembley games, it would seem to back the suggestion by Him Re: schooling and interests.

Does it hell.
People who attended the same school or had the same group of friends often continue this association into their professional lives...regardless of if the school was boarding or a comprehensive.
I have business dealings with guys I went to school with 30 years ago, but I don't do this because of some misplaced loyalty to a school tie, but because I make money from it. The same goes for any school and any industry......it's not who you are, it's who you know.
Him bemoaned the lack of money, the lack of media, the prosperous south and connections with major companies...he was whining about the unfairness of it all......he is wrong.

The RFL has an ex Davis Cup playing Director of Tennis for the LTA at its head......hardly the son of a stockport miner, but instead a grammar school educated Surreyite.....with not a pigeon or whippet in sight!

Class distinction or Class War are easily rolled out to suit an argument, but the fact remains the RFL look like idiots when compared to the achievements of the other lot when it comes to most things.......

Apologies Gutts, I edited in the quote tags and added emphasis elsewhere while you were posting your reply.


Theres only you who seems to find any difficulty with the concept of former public schoolboys and their sporting preferences....What type of School did you go to, what was your preferred sport and who was one of your first employers?


Lol, its about connections gf.....so you are saying the old school tie doesnt and has never existed?.


Its not about class war gf...its about having access...even in the 'heartlands' League had to fight just to get into some schools and then in general, the secondary schools played League while grammar schools tended to play union.
its just how it was.

Whilst on the surface it may look like good marketing, if the returns on that marketing is poor, then it is in fact poor marketing.

It's all well and good spending a minge-full but the point of getting people in is so that you can make money on them, although this maybe in the long term.

If the RFL decided to blow a few million on Magic Weekend and ended up losing a couple of million on the event then I'd be spewing with them. THAT would be bad marketing, not spending a modest amount and getting a decent return.

People get confused when they relate a large crowd to great marketing. The fact that Saracens are losing millions each year, suggests that they haven't got their marketing strategy anywhere near right.

I went to a Rugby Playing boarding School in the Republic of Ireland and my first employer was The Bailey on Duke Street, Dublin 2 where I served a 3 year apprenticeship in Public House Management.


Any school will have a network of past pupils.....because those that went to grammar or above schools keep in touch has little influence over whether past pupils from a comprehensive do. Facebook and its like will only make this more important for the generations to come...



I still say that the decision by companies such as Mastercard, Landrover, Heineken, Soc Gen, Blackberry et al has 100% to do with ROI and little to do with who went to school.

The RFL laid their stall out 100 years ago as the proigressive modern and professional game and they have nobody else to blame that the old farts down the road seem to have completely overtaken them in every area of the game off the field and in some cases on it!
The same excuses have been rolled out since time began......it's the Leagu way to blame everone else but themselves.

BTW........what Old School tie networked prevented the 40,000 empty seats at the Double header being filled?

But the large crowd gives the Club/ sporting organasation lots of good pr, column inches and airtime and allows them to make spurious claims about avg att and records being smashed.
Their sport is on the up and everyone loves a winner. We used to have similar 'big' occaisions but now people would rather sit at home and blame the RFL for holding the event in that London or Wales...we even struggle to sell out Internationals in Wigan.

Look at the press and media coverage this one game has got and calculate just how much that would cost to buy in real terms and then add in the intangible 'feel good factor'.

In an interview before the first Wembley game the saffacens ceo stated that one of the aims of these games was to produce a bump in att in the following home game at Watford....What actually happened was att at their next home game dipped below their then season avg.

Bet you played and continued your interest in union as well gf. Take it you just forgot to mention the summer job at Huguenot House?

Not that your schooling had any affect on you, ay Gutts.


Is that a yes, the old school tie does in fact exist?


Lol, so none of your cohort who work within adversting and post quite openly on planet punt monkey would ever put in a 'good word' for union. c'mon gutts...Im kinda hoping you do the same thing for RL...in a more cultured way obviously




I'm not a capper gf....I'm aware of mistakes and stupidity of previous generation of RL governance, just as Im also aware that as far back as the sixties the game could not get a fair deal for its TV and other commercial rights, a situation which continues to this day imho.


Youre just being daft now

Bective Rangers then London Irish.
Carried out marcoms work for the IRB between 1998- 2005 in a professional capacity on behalf of my employers.
My Schooling taught me many things, including respect and good manners. I have never considered myself better than anyone (except maybe the brains trust over on TFC

)
The Old School tie network exists in many forms......see linkedin.com and facebook as modern examples.
I will market RL in any way shape or form I can for free. Petone Panthers Centenary being an example....my local club here in NZ. I will market Union so long as they pay me.......and they do!!
Your last comment about getting a "fair deal" is an odd one. The ESL gets good money from SKY and regardless of what Auntie says, the CC will be on FTA TV. The rest, rather than whining on about it, needs to be confronted head on and dealt with. Everyone with the exception of soccer has to fight for revenue and the RFL need to learn how to fight smarter (dirtier if need be)
As for being daft......there were 40,000 empty seats at the double header. Reading yours and hims explanation, I expect there to be a reason why RL fans couln't make it....2 games for a tenner........TGG.......surely the fans would have flocked in their thousands marching from Jarrow and the like



Lastly, Landrover are an Indian owned company.......what Public school did it's CEO go to?
Research in Motion are Canadian........Mastercard American based, Heineken Dutch........none of these are countries you'd expect the Old School Tie network to be in, yet they all sponsor the IRB world cup. Do you suspect the committee that elected to have 7"s at Rio in 2016 were all old eatonians? Mill Hillians maybe?

Like Londons weekly brown paper bags stuffed with cash from the RFL, conspiracies are hard to prove without cold hard factual documented proof and without that, conspiracists come across as bitter whining fools

Didnt say we got no money gutters, I suggested that historically the sport has had a problem getting a fair deal for its commercial rights.


I agree. Trouble is the RFL cant get higher values for its events partly because they arent supported by the fans. Not saying the RFL are blameless but some of the, errr, logic spouted on here is...well, stupid.
There was a fella earlier tonight who, if I read it right, suggested in this thread that the RFL were wrong to play Aus WC games in Warrington and Leeds, cos all their support is in the south, while suggesting in another vt thread(and with a straight face I assume) that support from Australians in London for RL is a myth.
You wouldnt post anything that daft, would ya gutts.


LOL, you are being daft. You are a former fee paying school boy who went to a union playing school who retains an interest in union through playing union at school.
Your existence proves Him's point!... Jarrow...pmpl.

All the dbl header att suggests to me is that fans didnt travel.




Hoping ppl will forget Your spurious claim that no public schoolboy spent any money promoting the London saffas.


Not sure anyone has ever said you were bitter gutts......

Gutters - please do be careful. The combination of straw men and hot air in your posts represents a serious fire hazard.

I would love to know what could be done with the sport if the RFL broke the bank to bring in Barry Hearn...just look at the revolution of darts

Aye, the sport would be live on Sky and played in front of crowds of baying, drunken idiots in fancy dress who have no interest in the sport itself and are just there for the beer.

So much like autumn international rugby union then...

I'm not saying it would need to take the darts path, I was more thinking along the lines of the fact that the guy knows how to market a product

Barry Hearn hasnt translated that to snooker though.

I think the RFL has found some great success with events like The Grand Final WCC and 4 Nations.

What worries me is when things arent quite right they seem slow to rectify them. Magic Weekend isnt right , Challenge Cup isnt right, THE GF Playoffs arent right.

And where is the next big idea?

Exiles took an age when we were crying out for a competitive mid season game.

And what about more events in the calendar.

Look at Wigans BIG ONE thats a great idea.

Theres lots more on these boards. I would like to see the RFL get more feedback from the fans community. Also put RFL ideas into the public domain and get feedback.

One more thing Surely the RFL stobart deal should be advertising the Magic weekend on all of them, discounted tickets for club stobart and one of each of the lorries should be at the C of M stadium. Maybe bringing the teams in ( the last mile)?

Got some publicity through from the dastardly RFL this very morning. £67 to see Challenge Cup final, Magic Weekend AND Super League Grand Final. £18-£21 for England v Exiles tickets. £10 and buy one get one free for RL 9s finals night. Tickets for Northern Rail Cup final from £14. Championship finals day £16.
There's a free 2012 pocket-sized fixture listings and a rather nice looking booklet which includes key dates for the 2013 Rugby League World Cup.