so is australia not producing players anymore or are the clubs doing it on the cheap by using the islanders ?

As one of the top three nations in international RL, shouldn't the NZRL be looking to improve their own domestic league rather than throwing another team in the NRL?

You'd like to think so. Would be good to see New Zealand and France look to strengthen their domestic competitions.

no, reality is in order to compete with teh best you have to be exposed to the best and that means taking the elite players and putting them in the elite leagues. With the best will in the wprld there is no way in this century NZ is going to be able to run a 12 team comp with teams incomes of $15-20mill and 50K jnr RL players to draw from. Same for France.

Other reality is that a lot of NZ eligible players are actually born in Oz and play all their jnr football here. Its the nature of Australia, nearly everyones from somewhere else.

I was thinking more long the lines of having the French and NZ domestic leagues as shop windows or springboards to NRL and SL.

They are in NZ at a jnr level. reality is again that the NRL clubs have scout networks and are already identifying the best kids at 10 yrs old. When they are 14-15 they bring them over to Oz on scholarships to play in their jnr sides and work their way up. One of the reasons the Toyota cup (under 20's) is full of PI eligible players.

Rarely does any player get signed to an NRL team after 21 these days wether playing in NZ, NSw or Q'land cups.

As a sport, do we want to go down the route of southern hemisphere rugby union, and have our biggest club competitions played over continents instead of countries? If developing the talent means having clubs from different countries in another domestic comp then fair play, but in the long term I'd like to see NZ Warriors in a strong New Zealand league and Catalan back in a strong French league.

and how exactly would the NZRL build a domestic comp as strong as SL or NRL or would you rather see NZ at the same level as PNG on the Int stage?

NZ has a pop of around 4.2mill and RL is only popular with a relatively small % of that. Just how exactly are they to raise an income of $200mill a year to match the NRL?

pipe dreams. Onlyhope for France and NZ is to have three teams in NRL, SL eventually and put their energies into jnr development so there is plenty of talent for those three teams plus a semi pro domestic league.

what evidence have you got to prove rugby league is a dying sport. Sorry mate but in australia the NRL is the strongest code. Rugby Union is the sport that is dying, TV ratings have proven that rugby league is the number 1 sport. NRL will be getting a huge TV deal while Super 15's will be struggling.

Also in the UK, Super League beat the Guinness Premiership in TV ratings more often then not!

please post the average Super League/Guinness premiership attendance records and also NRL/Super 15's to back up your argument!

Err...

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nrl_2010NRL 2010 average attendance - 17,373.[/url
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Super_14_seasonSuper 14 2010 average attendance - 20,901[/url

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Guinness_PremiershipGuinness Premiership average attendance 2009-10 - 13,745[/url
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_League_XVSuper League XV average attendance - 9,615[/url

For once damo is right about the attendances.

We might be thriving in TV attendances, but ‘real attendances’ people are losing interest.

Like I said rugby league has some things better than Union. However if anyone thinks that League is more popular than union then their pretty deluded. Only nit pickers can make out league to be more popular than union at the moment.

Rugby league is a dieing sport because attendances are declining and players are slowly but surely migrating to the other code.

There are six teams in the Rugby Union Premiership who play in non-traditional grounds/areas. These are Leeds, London Irish, Newcastle, Sale, Wasps and Saracens (i.e. teams in non-traditional rugby Union strongholds or traditional teams who play in new grounds or ground shares)

Listed below are the attendances for their home fixtures to date this year compared to the same home fixtures last year

2009-10 Season – 146,633
2010-11 Season – 111,325

This represents a 35,308 drop from ‘exactly’ the same fixtures year on year (a drop of 24%). As an examples, Saracens attendances have dropped by 37% this year and Sale by 16%

The remaining teams (Bath, Gloucester, Harlequins, Leicester and Northampton cumulatively have attracted 198,477 fans which is 2,109 down on the same fixtures last year

...and Rugby League is dying?

yes the number of aussie players is diminishing

even scarier is the thought that 30% of all RL juniors are polynesian kids so if they can pick tonga,samoa etc imagine where int. rl could be

no money in nz, even union doesnt get that much money

the big money is in australia

to compare : nz 4 million people, nsw and queensland - 10 million ish plus much wealthier as well.

having sydney as a RL city means with sponsors, advertising etc theres lots of money for RL.

basically use the strength of RL in nsw and queensland to take over nz

with france its possible to have their own league again but not nz

France has 60 million people nz has 4 million

even union struggles to have a domestic comp. with lots of money so league would never achieve it

whats stopping them?

Going back to the original question I would love to see this happen.
In reality though will it happen,I doubt it but I would love to be proven wrong.
I thought union was more or less classed as a religion in NZ,especially the All Blacks and with the union WC happening next year in NZ IT's going to get stronger,regrettably.

Damo if RL and union ever merged our game would get swallowed up by them big time.
If this ever happened I would not watch the sport again,if anything I would probably watch football and this shows how desperate I obviously am.
However I would imagine if the codes did merge I would hope there would be some sort of breakaway from this version of Rugby and amateur RL could carry on .

What about in Auckland though. Is League now not par with Union?

you could count on the fingers of one hand the number of clubs that would benefit by realigning themselves with RU.

There is the potential with the new Australian TV deal, that this wil significantly raise the income streams of RL teams in Australia.

Talk is of a $1billion TV deal.

If this happens then the salary cap could go up by $3-5 million. This would significantly raise player earnings potential. The total salary cap per club would be around $10million. In such a scenario a club with a 25 man squad could pay each player an average of $400k a year. This would mean the likelyhood of the $1million a year star player becoming a distinct posibility.

A young Rugby union player in NZ faced with earning potentially a maximum of $200k a year playing in Super 14 or $400k+ a year in the NRL, is likely to think seriously about choosing RL as a career option.

Over a period of time this is likely to cause a drain of Southern hemisphere union talent over to league.
It wont necessarily come in the form of big name defections, but in 16 year old players picking league ahead of union.
Historically in NZ, things went the other way, and many of the star young league players chose Union. Lomu being a classic example.

The same also applies to players from the islands, who are more likely to choose League in the future due to the earnings potential in that sport.

The above is also why i fear for the survival of SL as a viable professional competition when faced witha cashed up NRL. An exodus of star RL players from the UK to Aus, is likely to make British RL a less attactive proposition to watch either live or on TV. This would result in reduced revenues at the gate, via sponsorships, and also in any TV deal.
The game may then see clubs go to the wall or, at the very least revert back to a semi pro level.

As far as I know Auckland is a hotbed of RL but union is still strong there.
But what about the rest of the country,union is by far the stronger of the two and this for me is the problem.
The NZRL have to try and get the kids into the game so the amateur game can thrive,if this happens the game will get stronger.
I would like to know how many people are actually playing RL in the country compared to union.

chair maker, true on most points except more than likely the salary cap will go up to $6.5 - 7 million and the rest is for expansion other costs

that will still see top players on around 1.5 - 2 million with exemption to salary caps for 3rd party sponsors and marquee players allowance

with that kind of wage well be attracting any union player we want

and this is only 12 months away

Quote ="The Chair Maker"There is the potential with the new Australian TV deal, that this wil significantly raise the income streams of RL teams in Australia. Talk is of a $1billion TV deal. If this happens then the salary cap could go up by $3-5 million. This would significantly raise player earnings potential. The total salary cap per club would be around $10million. In such a scenario a club with a 25 man squad could pay each player an average of $400k a year. This would mean the likelyhood of the $1million a year star player becoming a distinct posibility. A young Rugby union player in NZ faced with earning potentially a maximum of $200k a year playing in Super 14 or $400k+ a year in the NRL, is likely to think seriously about choosing RL as a career option. Over a period of time this is likely to cause a drain of Southern hemisphere union talent over to league. It wont necessarily come in the form of big name defections, but in 16 year old players picking league ahead of union. Historically in NZ, things went the other way, and many of the star young league players chose Union. Lomu being a classic example. The same also applies to players from the islands, who are more likely to choose League in the future due to the earnings potential in that sport. The above is also why i fear for the survival of SL as a viable professional competition when faced witha cashed up NRL. An exodus of star RL players from the UK to Aus, is likely to make British RL a less attactive proposition to watch either live or on TV. This would result in reduced revenues at the gate, via sponsorships, and also in any TV deal. The game may then see clubs go to the wall or, at the very least revert back to a semi pro level.'" this.. www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/leag ... rom=smh_sb Quote THE promising sons of former Kiwis captain Hugh McGahan and ex-All Blacks skipper Tana Umaga have turned their backs on the New Zealand Rugby Union to sign with Melbourne Storm. In a huge show of confidence in the Storm and the NRL, Matt McGahan and Cade Umaga have chosen to play league rather than pursue representative careers in union. The two are junior stars in the rival code, with McGahan, a five-eighth, named man of the match in the New Zealand rugby union schoolboys' 30-21 defeat of their Australian rivals in Dunedin on October 6, and Umaga being named in the national under-17 merit team. Advertisement: Story continues below Both had been considered future All Blacks but Storm recruitment manager Darren Bell snuck under the guard of the NZRU to lure them to league, and predicts they will be one day playing together in Melbourne's NRL team. ''Both of them are very, very talented, and obviously they have good pedigrees,'' Bell said. ''In fact, I'd go as far as to say Matt McGahan is the most exciting kid I have seen. When we recruit we're looking for players we think will eventually be a part of our NRL team, and both Matt and Cade have skill, ability, they are smart, tough and have good work ethics.'' McGahan's father, Hugh, played 32 Tests for New Zealand, many as captain, and captain-coached the Roosters in the last of his seven seasons with the Bondi club. He was named the 1987 Dally M captain and lock of the year, and won the 1988 Golden Boot award as the world's best player. Although having played 74 rugby union Tests for New Zealand, Tana Umaga also has a strong league background and represented the Junior Kiwis before joining the Newcastle Knights in 1991. ''It was very humbling speaking to Hugh and Julie McGahan and Tana and Rochelle Umaga about their sons' futures,'' Bell said. ''Both boys love playing rugby league, the families enjoy their rugby league, and with our [salary cap dramas last season there is going to be plenty of opportunities for young up-and-comers like Matt and Cade. McGahan, 17, is due to move to Melbourne at the end of the year and will start next season with the club's under-18 SG Ball team, while 16-year-old Umaga will remain in Wellington for another year to complete his schooling before joining the Storm on a full-time basis in 2012.'"

Quote ="The Chair Maker"There is the potential with the new Australian TV deal, that this wil significantly raise the income streams of RL teams in Australia. Talk is of a $1billion TV deal. If this happens then the salary cap could go up by $3-5 million. This would significantly raise player earnings potential. The total salary cap per club would be around $10million. In such a scenario a club with a 25 man squad could pay each player an average of $400k a year. This would mean the likelyhood of the $1million a year star player becoming a distinct posibility. A young Rugby union player in NZ faced with earning potentially a maximum of $200k a year playing in Super 14 or $400k+ a year in the NRL, is likely to think seriously about choosing RL as a career option. Over a period of time this is likely to cause a drain of Southern hemisphere union talent over to league. It wont necessarily come in the form of big name defections, but in 16 year old players picking league ahead of union. Historically in NZ, things went the other way, and many of the star young league players chose Union. Lomu being a classic example. The same also applies to players from the islands, who are more likely to choose League in the future due to the earnings potential in that sport. The above is also why i fear for the survival of SL as a viable professional competition when faced witha cashed up NRL. An exodus of star RL players from the UK to Aus, is likely to make British RL a less attactive proposition to watch either live or on TV. This would result in reduced revenues at the gate, via sponsorships, and also in any TV deal. The game may then see clubs go to the wall or, at the very least revert back to a semi pro level.'" this.. www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/leag ... rom=smh_sb Quote THE promising sons of former Kiwis captain Hugh McGahan and ex-All Blacks skipper Tana Umaga have turned their backs on the New Zealand Rugby Union to sign with Melbourne Storm. In a huge show of confidence in the Storm and the NRL, Matt McGahan and Cade Umaga have chosen to play league rather than pursue representative careers in union. The two are junior stars in the rival code, with McGahan, a five-eighth, named man of the match in the New Zealand rugby union schoolboys' 30-21 defeat of their Australian rivals in Dunedin on October 6, and Umaga being named in the national under-17 merit team. Advertisement: Story continues below Both had been considered future All Blacks but Storm recruitment manager Darren Bell snuck under the guard of the NZRU to lure them to league, and predicts they will be one day playing together in Melbourne's NRL team. ''Both of them are very, very talented, and obviously they have good pedigrees,'' Bell said. ''In fact, I'd go as far as to say Matt McGahan is the most exciting kid I have seen. When we recruit we're looking for players we think will eventually be a part of our NRL team, and both Matt and Cade have skill, ability, they are smart, tough and have good work ethics.'' McGahan's father, Hugh, played 32 Tests for New Zealand, many as captain, and captain-coached the Roosters in the last of his seven seasons with the Bondi club. He was named the 1987 Dally M captain and lock of the year, and won the 1988 Golden Boot award as the world's best player. Although having played 74 rugby union Tests for New Zealand, Tana Umaga also has a strong league background and represented the Junior Kiwis before joining the Newcastle Knights in 1991. ''It was very humbling speaking to Hugh and Julie McGahan and Tana and Rochelle Umaga about their sons' futures,'' Bell said. ''Both boys love playing rugby league, the families enjoy their rugby league, and with our [salary cap dramas last season there is going to be plenty of opportunities for young up-and-comers like Matt and Cade. McGahan, 17, is due to move to Melbourne at the end of the year and will start next season with the club's under-18 SG Ball team, while 16-year-old Umaga will remain in Wellington for another year to complete his schooling before joining the Storm on a full-time basis in 2012.'"

The situation you describe above where one code has a higher salary cap and therefore having the potential to prove more attractive to prospective players is exactly the same in the UK except it is Union with the higher cap than League. If the increased cap causes the talent drain from Union to League in the Southern hemisphere then is it not logical to assume that the opposite will happen here? If that is the case, then it is Rugby Union that is the biggest threat to SL being a viable competition in the UK not the NRL

In reality, neither will happen because the two are different sports and while there will always be fluctuations in power in any given region the two will both continue

As a Rugby League fan, I rest pretty easy in the knowledge that the open playing field we have these days in player movements (both amatuer and professional) is good for the sport because at the end of the day, ours is a better sport to play and watch