No they're not. Warrington is a very big town. Widnes is a very small town. Last time Widnes were in SL, their attendances weren't particularly impressive. Even when they bankrupted themselves buying that marvellous team in the late eighties/early nineties, and winning plenty of games, they still didn't average what Warrington average now.

Let's be clear - Widnes are the strongest option in the championship at this time, by some distance, but when they arrive in SL, they will be occupying the same position/role as Castleford, Salford, Harlequins and Wakefield : mediocre crowds, mediocre team, the occasional upset but no serious challenge to the big clubs.

You can argue that Salford might improve because of their new stadium, or that Harlequins might get a marketing manager who knows his @rse from his elbow to improve crowds. You could even argue that Wakefield should be doing a lot better than they are in terms of crowds and player development, given the size of the city (and they might, with a new ground and new management). But Widnes are about as big as they're ever going to get. Their catchment area is drawn, their stadium is built, all the kids in the town who can play RL are already playing RL. It's hard to see where any future growth will come from. But then, that shouldn't worry us until and unless another club comes along which can seriously promise better. At present, there's no candidates I can see.

Erm, where?



The same goes for a large number of clubs at all levels, where would Widnes be if they didn't have a sugardaddy?

Wrong part of London though eh Graeme?


Wish they'd move to Brisbane Rd and change name to London RLFC

They've apptd the guy who was in charge of the Eagles when they were sacrificed? And he has the cheek to talk about the need for expansion into new areas!

The RFL need to be very transparent about exactly they are judging clubs, what the criteria are and hw they have reached that decision. If not they are liable to court action, regardless of if clubs signed something 3 years ago. Nothing to stop a fan taking them to court, or a sponsor, or an investor.

They need to be honest and say Quins and Crusaders are expansion areas and therefore exempt from the criteria, if not any right minded judge would look at Quins, look at Wakey or Cas and ask how exactly Quins stayed in whilst one of those two were kicked out.

True, which makes the whole situation even more ridiculous. The RFL are looking at putting in a loss making team (Widnes) and throwing out a club that actually made a profit in 2009 and doesn't have a sugar daddy (Cas).



It all comes down to stadium in the end and so Widnes will get a licence because Halton borough council found the cash to build one and Wakefield council are too tight to cough up.

You mean by say publishing the criteria on which franchise bids will be judged on their website, then giving a summary of their judgement on each franchise bid once the result is announced on the same website? Much as they did with the initial round of franchising IIRC.

I'd love to know on what legal basis a fan could take the RFL to court for their team not getting a SL licence.

Well wrong actually. Widnes' crowds were very similar too Warrington's when last in SL and they were above Hudds, Salford, Wakey & London's by a decent amount... oh and that was a team fighting relegation for the last two years, make of that what you will but don't just make stuff up to back your point!

Future growth? Why shouldn't Widnes be allowed in SL just because their academy is already toping tables? And because we got our stadium sorted years back? And as we have off the field sorted?

Surely that is real potential as it's a moving progress? Rather than people just using guesswork? Like 'if & maybe' Widnes have facts of good SL crowds, facts of a great academy, facts of a well run business!

As for Quins in SL, tbh I really don't know! Yes they are important but as important as some believe, i.e. be all and end all? No, not for me. The only thing I have an issue with is prefferential treatement to any club!

This is number one example of how this franchise system is flawed! How can you say, right we are judging teams on all this criteria and the worse one or two will drop out... oh but not Quins? That's just wrong! Whether Quins in real threat or not it doesn't matter you shouldn't gurantee a place to any one team whatsoever as it brings complacency... something IMO Quins RL have been quilty of for years now!

They have a great stage to develop but seem to think oh sod it if it doesn't work the RFL will help out. Hudds had poor crowds and an average side yet with hard work from the top down look how for that as got them!

Why are people judging Harlequins viability as a SL franchise solely by their balance sheet and their attendances?

Widnes made a 1million pound profit in the Championship

funny how the RL Family, quickly turns to the SL family isn't it?

Why all the issue with Widnes having a 'sugar daddy' bar say Leeds, Wigan & Hull which other sides would be fine without their major backer? No-one has a problem with Quins & Hull KR's HUGE losses as their owners are coughing up yet when Widnes actually make a profit suddenly it's a big deal and a bad thing? RIDICULOUS!

Because that's the way the RFL have made it. No-one talks about the best teams come this time of year and franhcises simply the stats and figures!

errr because without money you can't run a 3million pound a year SL club, and if no one gives a 5h1t you exist what is the point?

No they haven't.

The franchise criteria for SL is based on a lot more than simply balance sheet and attendances, yet those are the sticks constantly used to beat Quins with.

And JB Down Under - if not enough people caring that you exist is a bar to being a SL club, you may as well kick out Salford and close the door on the way out. No Championship or Championship 1 club would meet that criteria looking at average attendances in those competitions.

Because they can't have ago at the stadium.

Are those audited accounts available yet as I'm intrigued as to how that's been achieved? Just to get £1M of [uincome[/u a club would need to average over 3500 people paying £20 each over 14 games. There must be some fantastic commercial income being generated.

Quote ="Iain"Are those audited accounts available yet as I'm intrigued as to how that's been achieved? Just to get £1M of [uincome[/u a club would need to average over 3500 people paying £20 each over 14 games. There must be some fantastic commercial income being generated.'" Yea pretty much! www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=2519 Should be up on Companies house pretty soon too!

Quote ="Iain"Are those audited accounts available yet as I'm intrigued as to how that's been achieved? Just to get £1M of [uincome[/u a club would need to average over 3500 people paying £20 each over 14 games. There must be some fantastic commercial income being generated.'" Yea pretty much! www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=2519 Should be up on Companies house pretty soon too!

How are the applications assessed?

Clubs are assessed on criteria in 5 key areas:

a. Commercial, Marketing, Media and Community.
b. Facilities.
c. Finance.
d. Governance and Business Management.
e. Playing Strength and Player Performance Strategy.

I did see a more direct SL criteria list but can't come across it now. But if you want to go on the criteria set for 2008-11 franchises then bar Location, Solvent & Stadium capacity what else do Quins 'tick'

Performance was average 8th place... have they done that 09 / 10? Turnover of 4million? Marketing... how do you judge that? Is it as simple as decreasing crowds = bad marketing?

Not having a pop directly at Quins but I would feel sore if my club lost a franchise if they 'ticked more boxes' then Quins and without an RFL Taskforce taking over some.

Quins were always going to retain their franchise but to publicaly gurantee that is just pure wrong. If they openly and officially guranteed Widnes a place in 2012 as well as RFL support in some aspects of the club would you be happy about it? Especially if your side was at risk their!

Which is probably why no-one's done that.

At the risk of being accused of pedantry (I know, me!)



Nowhere does it say "We guarantee that Quins will get a license next year, no matter what they do or the quality of their application." In fact, it doesn't talk about the license process at all in that section.

The only clubs guaranteed a license in 2011, iirc, are those whose licences were graded A after being awarded in 2008. (I think that's the 'more direct criteria list' you're referring to - which weren't the criteria against which lincence applications were judged, but the criteria against which successful ones were graded)

Unless you can learn to read, then there's no point debating with you.



Warrington average attendance 2010 - 10,947
Widnes average attendance 1989/90 - 7,858



Widnes average attendance 2005 - 6,794.

Maybe you think 6,794 is impressive. I don't. This year, 9 clubs achieved more than that, and one was statistically identical.

Nobody's making anything up here. I'm merely pointing out that there is no evidence to suggest that Widnes will be as well-supported as Warrington when they enter SL, and plenty of evidence that they won't be.

Actually, that's not true. Somebody is making things up :



Warrington's average attendance 2005 - 11,003
Widnes average attendance 2005 - 6,794.

Trouble with maths, as well as English ?

I thought the RFL had 'guranteed them support in SL until at least 2014'?

Ah the old selective reading & stats then have a pop at the poster post



Brilliant, well done on that one!

Facts, they're a bugger aren't they



People shouldn't be allowed to use them.

SL 2002...
Warrington - 6,189
Widnes - 6,511

Easy isn't it...

And it looks like Quins may have got much much safer! cominoweb.wakefield.gov.uk/Plann ... nt=obj.pdf

And it looks like Quins may have got much much safer! cominoweb.wakefield.gov.uk/Plann ... nt=obj.pdf

Yup

2002
Widnes - 6,510
Warrington - 6,189

2003
Widnes - 6,511
Warrington - 7,031

2004
Widnes - 6,153
Warrington - 9,890

2005
Widnes - 6,794
Warrington - 11,001

Just for the full picture

That's because they are extremely large sticks, more like clubs in fact!

In regards to Salford I wouldn't disagree, can anyone honestly say they have strengthend SL in any way? At least it is early days back for them and I'd give them another 3 years but if they are still as they are now in 2014 then I'd be getting rid. In terms of att. in C1 it is very difficult to judge. HKR got 2-3000 yet boosted that number from SL day one to nearer 8000. Hard to judge latent support but at least Widnes have a track record of getting 6-7000.