If you were in it to make money you wouldnt be in it very long. Thats why clubs have supporters trust - to safe guard the club after people such as yourself have had a go at buggering it up.

I disagree.

If I was running a business I would be flat chat trying to make money out of it. Thats why you go into business right?

It doesnt matter if you own a factory making dresses or a Rugby league club.. the fundamental principle is to make money out of it...otherwise there is little or no point.

And if I'd paid a motza to buy the business in the first place I'd be damn sure I wouldnt want to lose my money. So thats why I would hire the best people to help me run my business. And in the case of a Rugby League club.. thats people who KNOW how to coach.. people who KNOW how to play etc etc.

Although any constructive feedback would be welcomed from the supporters the last thing I would want in [uMY[/u business are a group of supporters who although I'm sure are well meaning would probably just be best suited arguing over the price of pies in my kiosk, raising money for the junior team or whether to sell VB or Carling in the club bar.

Barry = idiot.

It is Barry who is as usual wrong.

Why?

Because he thinks people buy into RL clubs to run them as a business to make money.

Unlike Barry, most of us on here - and pretty well everyone connected with a club outside of SL - appreciates that you don't make any money out of owning a RL club. You end up putting money IN.

And realises that people often buy into RL clubs because they are keen fans (hell, that even applies at SL level - why have the likes of Davy and Moran and Hughes and Wilkinson poured so much in over the years?) rather than businessmen looing for a quick return. Indeed, those "businessmen" looking for a quick return soon realise the error of their ways and are off, frequently leaving the club in dire dire straits.

Those that DO stay the course, especially outside of SL (SL club rich owners are often also astute businessmen - McManus and Davy are good example) are often not very good businessmen. And often think they know better than anyone else how to do all the jobs. And often don't employ the most appropriate staff. And often can't afford to PAY for such staff anyway. And this is one reason why so many RL clubs get into and are in financial difficulties.

In environments like that, Supporters' Trusts may well prove to provide the only real future for the club.

At SL level, the dynamics are usually a little different, and therefore so are the objectives. As has been explained.

But don't try getting Barry to understand or accept this, because on Planet Barry its only what Barry thinks that has any credibility.

Adeybull.

Remind me NEVER to have you as a business partner






You're fired

Because he talks about himself in the third party in a attemp to try and make himself appear "cool"......

[url=http://img706.imageshack.us/i/bazx.jpg/[/url

Uploaded with [url=http://imageshack.usImageShack.us[/url

He's an idiot, don't take him on.

L.I.S.A. do a cracking job at Leigh, so why it couldn't work on a larger scale I don't know.

Quite right.

You will always come second.



I appreciate a fan based co-operative might be of some benefit to some of the minor clubs like the one you support but I fail to see how it could benefit ones like Leeds or Wigan.

Come second, or get just get bored of you talking in the third person about how much of a legend you are? '

Nothing has, or will ever happen in your sad little life, go and talk to someone who cares'- Doug Stanhope 2009

Oh, if I wanted to I'd take him on and run rings round him. He's such an idiot, its not really that hard. Indeed, I already have - see how he backtracked in his post?

The OP was talking about Blackpool, not Leeds or Wigan. Wire fans set their trust up in pre-Moran days, when they were skint. Bulls fans have set their trust up because Bulls don't have a sugar daddy, and so a considerable number of fans looked at what we could do to make a difference.

And as for business partners...well as someone already in business I can assure you hell would freeze over before I ever considered employing the likes of him.

As for LISA...the benefit of a ST over an ISA is that it has to be more formalised and is an incorporated body. There are lots of advantages to incorporation, including limitations of personal liability and the ability to do things an unincorporated society cannot (Laura can tell interested folk all about it). As one of the founders of Bradford's (sadly now lapsed) ISA, I've seen both angles. I'd often wondered if LISA might have considered converting into a ST.

We tried to get one up and running at Crusaders but it was the blind leading the blind and too little too late as I believe Samuels had agreed on the move already and the fans knew it.

I will suggest it for Scorpions though as I feel it could work a lot better with a club in its infancy and in the situation it is in at present.

Barry McKenzie will choose to ignore your direct personal insults as it's quite clear you don't really have a grasp on reality.

Would you be kind enough to let me know exactly which businesses you are involved in so I can avoid investing in them?

The facts are very simple.

A Rugby League club is a BUSINESS.

For a business to survive long term you have to turn in a PROFIT.

If you do not make money and your outgoings are more than your income your business will go bust.


Until you realise this I'm afraid Sir Barry McKenzie-Sugar has just 2 words to say to you.




You're fired.

Forever Reds, the Salford group that started in 2002 became a Trust in about 2005 - the Trust raises money to support the junior ranks at the club and have provided kit, physio and training equipment and a defibrilator amongst other things. I think Rochdale, Swinton, Halifax, Doncaster and Widnes are other RL teams with Trusts, indeed, I think Rochdale ST actually run the RL club.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Unfortunately the OP states


[i"There are a number of ways a trust could work but all of them centre around the supporters gaining influence within the ranks of their professional clubs." [/i


It's the 'gaining influence within the ranks' bit that bothers me.

I have already discussed my feelings on that. The last thing we want is to have these groups putting pressure on the owners of the clubs about the general day to day running of them.

Next thing we know we will be in a situation where clubs cant do anything unless the supporters groups say so not unlike the organised hooligan groups that have attached themselves onto certain Italian and South American soccer clubs.

BM, don't take me on on matters financial - its what I do for a living, and I'll have you for breakfast if you try.

Care to list which RL clubs have turned in an operating profit over the long-term? Care to list which RL clubs have a solvent balance sheet and so are not already effectively bust if not for the largesse of their owner?

I have the accounts of most SL and a number of other RL clubs. So I may have a head start on you in that I already know most of the answer.

Most RL clubs are vocations for their owners. They SHOULD be businesses, but there is not enough money - or professional business expertise - in the game for this to be a realistic proposition.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And yes, I know I should just ignore the tiresome windbag like I usually do, but his unwarranted interjection of sewage into a sensible thread irked me somewhat.

You can't have a sensible discussion on the VT anymore without that prat (who's gone quite quiet) sticking his oar in where it's not welcome.

At least you shut him up......for now.

So for that.........

you talk some

There are two sides to this argument and strangely I find myself agreeing with barry to a degree

There seems to be a wierd acceptance that sports clubs [ RL in this case cannot make a profit or even break even , as ultimatley that is what the owners should be trying to achieve , most owners of clubs are succesful businessmen to varying degree's , however no previous business experience can prepare you to run a club

It seems almost that all common sense is immiediatley lost as soon as they get involved

If in their own business the market changed to the point that their business was no longer viable and was on the road to failure , what would these businessmen do ?

They would find new revenue streams via the sale of new products , however this seems a totally alien concept to the club owners , they seem totally blinkered and have this strange tunnel vision preventing them from doing anything different to what has been done in the past

They need to draw a line down the centre of the page with the sport on one side and the business on the other , the sport cannot finance the business , the business has to fund the sport

As for supporters trusts , well good as they are , no supporters trust club will ever progress past Championship one level , unless of course they want to give me a ring and I'll explain to them how they can secure their future and one day become a profit making SL standard club

Quins:2009
Financial statement says turnover was £2,146,378.
Administrative expenses £4,083,182. Hence operating loss £1,936,804.

So.......with between 1,750 and 2,250 fans, Quins need to plug the 2 million hole straight away, then a grand each from 2,000 every year and there you go......
why the club haven't thought of getting an additional 20 quid a week from their long suffering supporters by direct debit is beyond me. Pure genius

As a supporter, you immediately own .05% of a massive loss making company and you are responsible for 0.05% of the losses....the idiots who work for the club get to keep their jobs, probably increase the losses, thus exposing you to an increase to maybe 40 quid a week.....brilliant.

Supporters trusts are all well and good when your club is run hand to mouth, but any club that receives 1.5 million a year from TV and another 650k from supporters/sponsors should expect to be able to cut its cloth accordingly.....and a few grand a year from supporters is going to make no difference to the survival of a club........

That said, if David Hughes was to walk away, I would probably offer my 1k a year to keep the club going, though I doubt 1,999 others would.

Bazza......name the professional RL clubs in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres that make this "profit" you speak of. Are the sharkies rolling in it (money, not cr@p)? Did the Storm make a profit whilst rorting the cap? Are the bunnies a profitable club or is Rusty propping up his rabbits?

Wow. Its great to such a healthy debate on this! Lots of points to comment on too!

Firstly, yes a rugby club is a business and should be run as such. In an ideal world, all clubs would be making a profit and their owners would be taking that profit home or reinvesting it into the club. Unfortunately, in the real world, this is isn't the case. At Super League level we have massive debts being underwritten by wealthy owners which is great while they're around but what happens when they walk away? Outside of SL and I'm sad to say many clubs are not so well run.

The influence of a supporters trust comes from representing the fans - and anyone who tries to say clubs shouldn't be listening to their fans i.e. the customer is quite frankly wrong - and adding value where the club needs it most.

As Adeybull has already said, Bradford and Warrington are currently working towards attracting and developing local talent to the club as despite what many people think, Simon Moran does not feed endless streams of money into the club - he expects it to be run as a business which means certain things the club may like to do, cannot be done as the money isn't around. Same at Bradford (although without Moran obviously).

The model Barry speaks about would be great if it actually worked but in practice the majority of people who buy into rugby league clubs get too tempted to spend all their money on players with very little spent on the clubs infrastructure in the hope that they'll get promoted. When it doesn't happen, they walk away and the club is left in dire straits.

You only have to look at Blackpools current situation to see that this really does happen. However, when it does happen, the fans are left behind and a supporters trust can be an excellent way of resurrecting a club. Rochdale are currently in only their second season as a trust owned club and whilst I won't say its been easy for them, they're doing a fantastic job and showing that this model can work. You can also look at Bramley Buffaloes - probably one of the most successful if not the most successful amateur side in the country.

I'm not going to say a trust is the right option for every club - it isn't and I will never push it if I don't feel the circumstances are right. However, with a decent band of supporters and the right attitude it can definitely make a good contribution.

Of course you do champ





I bet you think the Wall St Crash 1929 was an unforseen random occurrence involving 2 cars just before 730pm

Indeed, of course I do. As plenty on here who know me know.

Translation: Barry McKenzie totally and utterly owned by Adeybull.



Have a nice day; you had a stinker yesterday.

ahhhhh.

The good old 'I've owned you' post.

The classic response from a poster who realises he has come off second best and can't think of anything else to say

Dry your eyes mate





Gutterfax I'm afraid I dont have any figures as to which clubs are making money.

You will have to ask Adey 'Chancellor of the Exchequer' Bull for any numbers.

Good luck!!!

How come any interesting or intelligent debate is wrecked by your ego Barry?

Bugger ringing anyone else i thought we had an exclusive deal?

Talks are ' ongoing ' at the moment , as soon as something is in place I'll give you a bell