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| Quote ="dally messenger"these failed clubs should look at clubs like Hull KR and Huddersfield who have grown from a similar position into very promising situations.
if they cant progress they deserve what they get realy '"
Well HKR and Huddersfield had promotion to play for, and rightly or wrongly this has been taken away.
I agree - when in SL they can use these as bench mark teams especialy HKR, but how can teams that are in the CC do anything more than some are doing? Improving back room staff, Playing in a stadium that is fit for SL, increasing junior development, being self suffiecient without a big backer, steadly increasing crowds, getting to GF or NRC Semi/Finals pushing SL teams close in the CC. Would you say that, this is the right way to go? |
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| Quote ="a.n Other"Well HKR and Huddersfield had promotion to play for, and rightly or wrongly this has been taken away.
I agree - when in SL they can use these as bench mark teams especialy HKR, but how can teams that are in the CC do anything more than some are doing? Improving back room staff, Playing in a stadium that is fit for SL, increasing junior development, being self suffiecient without a big backer, steadly increasing crowds, getting to GF or NRC Semi/Finals pushing SL teams close in the CC. Would you say that, this is the right way to go?'"
pretty much. having a rich backer isnt a bad thing for me.
hull kr were getting crowds of 3000 in NL1 and started improving their ground prior to getting into SL.
once they got into SL they improved their squad and are building their crowds, with hopefully more ground improvments to come
they are now safe as a SL club
Halifax could do the same, esp. with their ground being finished apparently
im happy to see Hull KR and Hull FC in SL. 2 Hull clubs isnt a big deal because they are 2 good clubs
Clubs in NL1 and 2 need to be getting their crowds up, get ground improvements under way and be financially sustainable, as well as have good on field performance.
the door hasnt been shut into SL, its up to clubs to improve themselves. |
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| Quote ="JonM"Is that right? It seems very low - there are plenty of RL towns in England where nearly all schoolkids (including girls these days) will have played at some point during the school year - and that comes to a great deal more than 2000 each. Does it mean playing RL for clubs outside of school?'"
established teams, outside schools.
penrith the largest have 8000 established juniors
pretty much all schools in nsw and queensland all play RL except the Private ones which only play union, with league not being offered as usual
if we are talking about playing it in school the numbers are heaps more |
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| Quote ="littlerich"Is that what you think the RFL's Mission Statement should be?'"
and you still claim to be pro expansion huh?
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| Quote ="littlerich"This is where you keep falling over mate. Please distinguish between people who are out and out against expansion and those who would like to see the game expand but in a manner which doesn't resemble a car crash. You can't can you? Mainly because you can't scratch beneath the surface. I've seen many posters trying to point this out to you but you're not interested in a having a contructive debate. You are what's known as a troll and yes, stupid people like me keep feeding you. It's like a crack habit. I can't stop - mainly because your stupidity is addictive.'"
yeah thats right, you were a fan of Les Cats before their SL inclusion eh?
you just dont seem the type of person supporting the inclusion in SL of the following clubs in the past :
London, Gateshead or Paris
or in the future :
Toulose, Lyon, Mille, South Yorkshire, Gateshead (again)
when Les Cats were being put into SL hardly any people like you thought it was a good idea. all i heard was nonsense about it failed in PSG, why are we trying again. when they came last or 2nd last and cost widnes relegation from 3rd last, i didnt hear much positive comments on their inclusion then either
buy hey, when their crowds kept growing, a CC final appearance and semi finals appearances, everyone suddenly was always in favour of their inclusion.
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For me it comes down to 3 things.
1. Crowds - are you likely to get more that 6,000 avg (a sustainable figure from income and legitimacy)
2. Ground - Is it going to attract people to watch teh game there
3. A finacial backer - any new club is going to lose moeny in its first few years. To survive you have to have someone willing to cover those losses.
HKR were a SL club in waiting (much like Widnes imo). They had the history and pedigree and it is was only a case of when they would get their together and make it happen. That is a very different scenario to starting up a new club in a non RL area and being able to sustain losses for 5-10 years at start up.
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i dont think you should compare heartland and expansion clubs the same way.
with an expansion team you have lower expectations, mainly just surviving and growing and a slower rate is the key.
with a heartland team, given there are many already in SL, they should be better than the ones that are currently there
widnes imo offer more than wakey or cas, so im more than happy to see wakey out for widnes, as cas are a stronger club than wakey and the jungle seems a better stadium than BV.
clubs need to look at marketing men and good people in finance to grow.
all heartland NL1 and 2 teams should have a minimum of 3000 crowds, and hopefully 5000. SL crowds have grown a lot whilst crowds below have stagnated. theres no reason why NL1 and 2 crowds cant show the same growth with proper marketing and development
whinging and talking about the past does nothing
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| Quote ="dally messenger"yeah thats right, you were a fan of Les Cats before their SL inclusion eh?
'"
Jesus wept. 
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| Quote ="dally messenger" talking about the past does nothing'"
So why do you do it in EVERY one of your posts? |
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| Quote ="littlerich"So why do you do it in EVERY one of your posts?'"
because i actually recognize the present and look to the future
you look backwards so much you dont know where you are going
ie your measure of success are that fax are still around today and PSG arent?
great measure of success for a heartland club that! |
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| Quote ="dally messenger"ie your measure of success are that fax are still around today and PSG arent?
great measure of success for a heartland club that!'"
It's a better measure of success than the half-assed expansion tactics which you are in favour of, as PSG so beautifully illustrates. |
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| Quote ="dally messenger"pretty much. having a rich backer isnt a bad thing for me.
hull kr were getting crowds of 3000 in NL1 and started improving their ground prior to getting into SL.
once they got into SL they improved their squad and are building their crowds, with hopefully more ground improvments to come
.
the door hasnt been shut into SL, its up to clubs to improve themselves.'"
HKR only started getting over 3k regularly in their promotion season. The improvement to the ground was re laying the pitch. Would they get into SL now based on licence requirements? Maybe, maybe not.
A team currently in the CC cant use these clubs as examples to get into SL. Them days are long gone.
For what its worth i do agree that expansion clubs should be treated differently to clubs in the so called heartlands
Quote ="dally messenger"
clubs need to look at marketing men and good people in finance to grow.
all heartland NL1 and 2 teams should have a minimum of 3000 crowds, and hopefully 5000. SL crowds have grown a lot whilst crowds below have stagnated. theres no reason why NL1 and 2 crowds cant show the same growth with proper marketing and development
whinging and talking about the past does nothing'"
And where would you suggest the money comes from to employ these marketing men and finance people?
If clubs in SL are losing money hand over fist how do you suggest clubs in CC and CC2 find this money? |
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| Quote ="Standee"Of course, the VT on RLFans is exactly the place to expect it, too.'"
Where did i say i was asking for RL opinions via this board? I said i'd like to see an RL opinion, i didnt say id like the VT to supply it. You really shouldnt have quit troll school early... |
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"For me it comes down to 3 things.
1. Crowds - are you likely to get more that 6,000 avg (a sustainable figure from income and legitimacy)
2. Ground - Is it going to attract people to watch teh game there
3. A finacial backer - any new club is going to lose moeny in its first few years. To survive you have to have someone willing to cover those losses.
HKR were a SL club in waiting (much like Widnes imo). They had the history and pedigree and it is was only a case of when they would get their poop together and make it happen. That is a very different scenario to starting up a new club in a non RL area and being able to sustain losses for 5-10 years at start up.'"
you say this, yet Hull KR are making losses, the the Chairman has basically admitted that the current business model is unsustainable, the ground isnt up to scratch and they have no real plans to get it there, they have next to no youth development, and they had masses of overseas players needed dispensation from the quota, challenged the quota rules to allow more overseas players
that to me doesnt seem like the introduction of an 'SL club in waiting' it sounds worse than the Celtic situation, who at least had the excuse of being away from the heartlands.
Hull KR have been fortunate to have a good coach and a management team prepared to throw a bit of money at them, I think Hull KR suffering a season like celtic did in their first year and Hudgell and Crossland suffering a year off the field like Samuels did and the situation at Hull KR becomes very very different |
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| Quote ="a.n Other"HKR only started getting over 3k regularly in their promotion season. The improvement to the ground was re laying the pitch. Would they get into SL now based on licence requirements? Maybe, maybe not.
A team currently in the CC cant use these clubs as examples to get into SL. Them days are long gone.
For what its worth i do agree that expansion clubs should be treated differently to clubs in the so called heartlands'"
correct. This also shows the level of uncertainty we will always have with the promoted club and why Crusaders 'failure' isnt such a bad thing
Quote
And where would you suggest the money comes from to employ these marketing men and finance people?
If clubs in SL are losing money hand over fist how do you suggest clubs in CC and CC2 find this money?'"
the RFL |
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| Quote ="dally messenger"
when Les Cats were being put into SL hardly any people like you thought it was a good idea. all i heard was nonsense about it failed in PSG, why are we trying again. when they came last or 2nd last and cost widnes relegation from 3rd last, i didnt hear much positive comments on their inclusion then either
'"
This is at best uninformed and at worst a lie yet it is trotted out on the forums time after time.
Of course there were some but there was very little negativity about Les Cats and unfortunately for you and your ilk the forums prove it. You can go back that far and actually see it, on totalrl.com there was one thread in 6 months that was anti-Catalans and that was quickly shouted down.
People can see a half decent idea when they see one and can see a disaster when they see one. Shades of grey that are too complicated for the expansion brigade. |
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| Quote ="Maximus Decimus"This is at best uninformed and at worst a lie yet it is trotted out on the forums time after time.
Of course there were some but there was very little negativity about Les Cats and unfortunately for you and your ilk the forums prove it. You can go back that far and actually see it, on totalrl.com there was one thread in 6 months that was anti-Catalans and that was quickly shouted down.
People can see a half decent idea when they see one and can see a disaster when they see one. Shades of grey that are too complicated for the expansion brigade.'"
because it is true, people remember it
Some people are still negative now about Les Catalans inclusion, only an Idiot would pretend it was plain sailing before they proved themselves a success. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"because it is =#FF0000true, people remember it
Some people are still negative now about Les Catalans inclusion, only an Idiot would pretend it was plain sailing before they proved themselves a success.'"
How many times have you lambasted others for suggesting the same ?
As for people having a problem with Les Cats , there was one overiding criticism , and that was that SL should have been expanded to include them instead of Widnes being dropped out to accomadate them , apart from that there was very little argument about them , how do I know this ? I REMEMBER it |
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| Quote ="Starbug"How many times have you lambasted others for suggesting the same ?
As for people having a problem with Les Cats , there was one overiding criticism , and that was that SL should have been expanded to include them instead of Widnes being dropped out to accomadate them , apart from that there was very little argument about them , how do I know this ? I REMEMBER it'"
well considering the posts on here only seem to go back to February we will have to agree to disagree
because i remember it quite differently |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"because i remember it quite differently'"
[uRepressed memory[/u:
=#0000FFA significant memory, usually of a traumatic nature, that has become unavailable for recall. |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"well considering the posts on here only seem to go back to February we will have to agree to disagree
because i remember it quite differently'"
www.totalrl.com/lofiversion/index.php/
Hmmmm your memory vs actual evidence? So difficult to decide.
Goes back to before Les Catalans were included. This site did until fairly recently (and I think the world forum might). Don't worry I've been keeping an eye on it because I know people like you do this, try and change history. I dread the day that they change the lo-fi site because then you'll state it without us having anything to prove you wrong.
Of course there were some against it but it was nothing like the scale of opposition to the Crusaders. This doesn't fit your arguments though so you ignore it. You try to make 'flatcappers' into some sort of organised opposition to RL expansion when it is far more complex than that.
If a team signed an average Australian then people would criticise the club for doing it but that doesn't mean that every single Australian signed is a bad signing and that there is a movement of people opposed to the signings of all Australians. It is judged on its individual merits, exactly what people do with expansion teams.
Like I said shades of grey, you should look for them. |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"well considering the posts on here only seem to go back to February we will have to agree to disagree
because i remember it quite differently'"
www.totalrl.com/lofiversion/index.php/
Hmmmm your memory vs actual evidence? So difficult to decide.
Goes back to before Les Catalans were included. This site did until fairly recently (and I think the world forum might). Don't worry I've been keeping an eye on it because I know people like you do this, try and change history. I dread the day that they change the lo-fi site because then you'll state it without us having anything to prove you wrong.
Of course there were some against it but it was nothing like the scale of opposition to the Crusaders. This doesn't fit your arguments though so you ignore it. You try to make 'flatcappers' into some sort of organised opposition to RL expansion when it is far more complex than that.
If a team signed an average Australian then people would criticise the club for doing it but that doesn't mean that every single Australian signed is a bad signing and that there is a movement of people opposed to the signings of all Australians. It is judged on its individual merits, exactly what people do with expansion teams.
Like I said shades of grey, you should look for them. | |
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| Quote ="Maximus Decimus"www.totalrl.com/lofiversion/index.php/
Hmmmm your memory vs actual evidence? So difficult to decide.
Goes back to before Les Catalans were included. This site did until fairly recently (and I think the world forum might). Don't worry I've been keeping an eye on it because I know people like you do this, try and change history. I dread the day that they change the lo-fi site because then you'll state it without us having anything to prove you wrong.
Of course there were some against it but it was nothing like the scale of opposition to the Crusaders. This doesn't fit your arguments though so you ignore it. You try to make 'flatcappers' into some sort of organised opposition to RL expansion when it is far more complex than that.
If a team signed an average Australian then people would criticise the club for doing it but that doesn't mean that every single Australian signed is a bad signing and that there is a movement of people opposed to the signings of all Australians. It is judged on its individual merits, exactly what people do with expansion teams.
Like I said shades of grey, you should look for them.'" so your 'actual evidence' of lack of outrage on this site is the lack of outrage on a different forum next to no-one uses, ok |
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| The first posts on the Toulouse board.............
Quote ="tb"et bienvenue a NL1 (or whatever it's actually called by the time the season gets under way)'"
Quote ="-VIKINGMAN-"Welcome to NL1, the Viking faithful are looking forward to travelling to France.
 '"
Quote ="littlerich"Welcome to British Rugby League. Hope you have a great time here - see you next year at the Shay.
Welcome
 '"
Quote ="GetThemScallyWags"You'll see very little resistance from any of us with regards Toulouse inclusion......
I'm definitely looking forward to my trip to France next year and good to see the club recruiting well.
 '"
Page three of the thread presents us with this one
Quote ="Starbug"Bog off frogs
 '"
Is that what you and Dally remember Smokey? That's called humour. I'd have your by-passes looked at again. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"icon_lol.gif so your 'actual evidence' of lack of outrage on this site is the lack of outrage on a different forum next to no-one uses, ok'"
Next to nobody uses it, have you actually ever been on it?
What is so special about totalrl that there has been masses of criticism for the Crusaders yet virtually none for Les Catalans.
Like I said this forum used to have the proof but it's irrelevant anyway because fans are fans no matter where they post and their opinions and debates are largely the same.
As per usual however you will try and make this about some sort of technicality, usually about the wording of something and this time you will try and insist that RLfans is massively different from TotalRL which is ludicrous. It's what people do when they've lost an argument make it about something else petty and trivial.
I'm not going to spend time arguing over this technicality with you I'll let the readers of this forum decide whether you and your opinion is good evidence or whether a rugby league forum going back to the time is good evidence. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA" i cant speak for anyone else but i certainly dont. Nor do i think its representative of all Widnes fans. Or even a majority, just a fair few that post on here'"
Then why do you consistently only hold Widnes and Leigh fans up as anti-expansionists and flat cappers?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" like many people feel some Widnes fans views are. And you are correct in what you put, except its not a difference, its the similarity. A lot of the arguments put forward by some Widnes fans arent cogent, and i can only see it as ignorant and wrong-headed. It isnt the fact a Widnes fans has put forward an argument, many put forward different one, but the fact a Widnes fan has put forward a particular argument'"
I’ve seen plenty from every RL club, including your own.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" parts of it. I agree the level of entitlement some Widnes fans show is quite disrespectful to some of the other clubs bidding. Im not sure Barrow are the answer though,'"
We base our entitlement to a SL place in future on the RFL’s very own criteria, and what the club has in place compared with competing clubs – nothing else. Given that our set up is better than many clubs already in SL, I’d suggest we have every right to claim a place as of right.
Obviously, if P&R were in place, we couldn’t and wouldn’t be in a position to claim anything. We didn’t set the rules.
Quote ="SmokeyTA" it was in a direct response to a statement by a different Widnes fan which implied that Widnes' promotion to SL was in almost universal agreement, when the reality is far from it.'"
[i'Almost universal'[/i. Doesn’t that still mean not fully universal?
Do you disagree that Widnes are the most likely Championship candidate, from the heartlands, to take the promised SL spot in 2012?
Who would you suggest and why, if not?
Quote ="SmokeyTA" I think it has certainly helped you form certain views on the subject yes. '"
Could you actually explain this? |
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