Move all the best players to one club and they will become worse players. They will be playing less demanding games of reduced intensity each week resulting in them becoming worse players.

But who cares as long as they are playing for Leeds and winning

I would hate to sound like League Freak but the quality of the average game in Super League this season has been awful compared to the NRL. It is far less a case of the other sides improving but Saints and especially Leeds slipping backwards towards the pack. What is worrying is that these two clubs earned their success mostly through British players. For the longer term future of the game we need clubs that develop their own players to come to the fore. Hopefully things will improve and it is only a temporary down turn but it is a bad sign for the game when a team with a minimal youth development policy and crowded with imports from the lower reaches of the NRL is in the top 2.

Or is it the other clubs that are playing better defencively ?

Comparing matches let alone different competitions on different continents or even different years is impossible , no game is the same , the game changes every year as different coaches focus on different aspects of the game

You seem to have a problem with HKR's junior development ?

They are only in their 4 th year in SL , have alook how their academy and reserve teams are doing in their competitions compared to Leeds this year ?

Junior development doesn't happen overnight , it took leeds the best part of 6/7 years from when Dean Bell got it sorted till they started to produce their own quality SL players

Hull KR have improved year on year, Huddersfield and Castleford are better this year than they were last. Just because the same old teams aren't running away with it at the top does not mean the standard is worse.

Perhaps the problem is that Leeds and Saints, Wigan and Bradford have had it too easy for too long and they are now struggling to adapt to a more balanced league where standards across the board are getting better. No more easy games. Perhaps some of those clubs are ill equipped to deal with the exciting new era that the RFL has ushered in...

It's funny how the obvious conclusion to draw between Saints and Leeds both struggling a bit more this season is that they've gone backwards (with pretty much the same players) rather than other teams having strengthened.

Seems to me that the opposite is evident - would, for example, Brett Hodgson have signed for Huddersfield if there was no salary cap?

Which is why we have a system in place (the salary cap) that only rewards teams who produce quality players. There isn't any other way to success.

licensing did...

you mean like hull kr?

not really! If a club can't afford to spend £1.6m it can't afford to spend £1.6m licensing or not. Yet the sc does nothing to stop you spending £1.6m even if you can't afford it, therefore it doesn't stop you spending more than you can afford

yes hudds would,

But saints and leeds are worse both are a forward light and both without a recognized centre, both things they had last year

No he means like HKR will

Their academy is performing well as is their reserve grade , these things take time

As you well know

Bloody hell , no wonder they arent murdering all the other clubs , I didn't know they were only playing with 11 instead of 13

Like Celtic ?

I can't agree that he would have signed for Hudds instead of, say, Wigan for the same cash.



Leeds are a forward light because Eastwood didn't come over due to visa problems (and if anyone becomes available I'm sure they'll rectify this) and they signed Danny Buderus FFS! Toopi was rubbish, centre is only a problem as Smith is injured.

Saints lost Scully (hardly played, Wilkin having his best season for years as a result), Fozzard (replaced with Puletua who is better), Cayless is struggling with injury which is putting pressure on the existing pack. However, Clough is a much better player after another off season.

Wheeler already looks a more talented centre than Talau and he isn't even a centre.

If there was no salary cap, do you think Myler would still be at Salford? Shenton at Cas? The fact that these players can't be poached willy nilly means that the other teams in the league can plan to strengthen over time and are far better teams as a result.

A lot of Wigan/Leeds fans blame their recent poor form on the salary cap forcing them to be worse. Fact is, the other teams have improved out of sight. The likes of KR/Cas/Hudds are FAR better than the mid table teams of the recent past and the top sides are struggling more as a result.

This is all aside from the fact that the salary cap means Saints have enough players through their academy who have played SL this season to put together a full team, and such exposure can only be good for the young players in this country.

1 Wellens
2 Armstrong
3 Wheeler
4 Dean
5 Tyrer
6 Eastmond
7 Smith
8 Graham
9 Cunningham
10 Frodsham
11 Ashurst
12 Dixon
13 Clough

14 Roby
15 Moore
16 Emmitt
17 Lomax

they are doing ok now, which kind of makes a mockery o his point

some peoples Wigan paranoia is hilarious,

I honestly can't believe anyone who watches leeds and saints week in week out thinks they are a better team this year than last

They are doing ok now because of 2 reasons , they now have the money to invest in the ' facilities ' needed



But the main reason is because they are now a SL club they are more attractive to local juniors than when they were a NL club , they now probably get a fairer share of the cream than they did before

And you know this is the reason

In any given season some teams will improve at a greater rate than others, some, for many reasons may be worse than previous seasons, this should not be surprising.

You appear to be arguing that because other teams are giving Leeds a game, then that in some way is unfair

it assessed the management of the org and business cases...

I suppose their are so many factors involved in success. I think team spirit is as important as anything. Bradford have made some truly dreadful signings in the last few seasons (why the obsession with Wakefield Wildcat players?). Add to these very average players a very average coach and it's not a suprise the Bulls are now struggling. The Warriors and Wolves have great squads yet the team spirit has just not been there. You have to admire Wakefield, Hull KR and Cas. On paper not the best, but it shows how good coaching and a cracking team spirit can put your club right up their with th Rhinos and Saints.

I'm reminded of a time say 7 or 8 years ago when Saints or Wigan would come to town. Everytime they touched the ball they looked dangerous, we'd expect to be beaten royally, we'd call 40-18 a good performance and if we beat them it was like winning the lottery.
I miss those days but to say the standard of that competition touched todays is ridiculous.
Our bench a few years ago featured players like Warren Stevens, Kevin Crouthers, nobodies yet as Smokey put it, Warrington were one of the teams that would compete 5 or 6 years ago. Our bench now features players with international honours, a far far stronger squad and the reality is there have always been two teams at the top, there never was consistantly a 'big four' or 4 teams in any given year that looked like challenging. Wigan were thereabouts on name only post 2000 and Leeds have just replaced bradford as the leagues second dominant team.

This is the key point. For years now we haven't given youth a chance, and have lost a lot of talent at the "potential" stage as a result. Only by giving English prospects game time and the benefit of a first team training regime will we ever get the elite national player pool broader, and the national side more competitive - and our sport will always struggle to grow without some international success. Loyal servant though he was, does anyone really think that people like Keith Senior should have had no competition for his England jersey well into his thirties? Roll on the next generation I say - especially the cockney ones