harry bath played for warrington that day at odsal.

all that post was more hot air.

again, why over 136 years have halifax managed such poor crowds etc?

i dont care about cup wins etc.

why are most of these clubs s**t?

if you think crowds of 2000 for a club thats been around that long is good, you are sadly deluded

the problem with your game is the so called heartland really isnt

its 6 really strong clubs, 4 others, and the rest are all a waste of time now, and not making any effort to get better.

And Australia is what ? 10/12 strong ones 5/6 others and the rest are a waste of time now , and are making no effort to get any better

Yes, crowds are poor now, they used to be great - like many many many other clubs.

But we're still here aren't we you daft Ocker. Paris aren't are they? Maybe we should do what the taffs have done and move 60 miles in the opposite direction and give it a try there?

Hes a pom Richie

I have a question, just out of interest really.

When the crusaders move was mooted the RFL stated that they were 'not breaching any RL byelaw' or something like that. Would they have breached a byelaw if Wrexham had been 28 miles from Widnes rather than 32 - ie not qualifying for getting the expansion 'tick' on their franchise app? Or does that mileage radius ONLY apply at franchise award time and then you can move where the hell you want? Same goes for stadia - would you be able to win a franchise by saying you were playing at Wembley, only to play a few games there and and then announce you were playing at the Willows?

An official RFL line on this question would be nice.

Of course, the VT on RLFans is exactly the place to expect it, too.

What do you suggest these clubs do? Just give up? Out of interest, what are the crowds like for North Sydney and Newton Jets?

take out 2 sydney clubs being cronulla and easts who add very little in terms of australian RL.

put them in SL and theyd be amongst your best

cronulla has something like 2000 junior kids playing RL in its district.

silly comparison

when SL develops an intensity like the NRL, watch the game grow quite a bit

these failed clubs should look at clubs like Hull KR and Huddersfield who have grown from a similar position into very promising situations.

if they cant progress they deserve what they get really.

newtown get 1000 - 2000 crowds as a feeder club for an NL team

if you arent in the NRL you are insignificant in oz. like it or not, that whats happpening in england too.

if clubs dont have realistic SL ambitions wheres there to go? want can these clubs contribute to RL becomming a bigger sport?

like it or not, if 1/10 expansion club works out, theyll bring more for RL than any of these clubs.

the RFL shouldnt be afraid of trying to expand and failing

the NRL doesnt ask newtown, glebe or annandale fans what it thinks it should do regarding its expansion plans

im just calling it as i see it. 90% of the anti expansion talk is biased / jealous and not constructive critisism

when you see the same people against almost anything to do with expansion in a real sense you see a pattern and form a conclusion

Indeed, but these are surely relative things. The facts are that outside about 6 or 7 clubs, we have clubs that relative to other sports are never going to be 'well supported' or 'well financed'. Getting 7k rather than 4k isnt banging down the doors of investors and sponsors. We need to look at the long term potential of clubs, who may for a few years get lower attendances but we need to allow clubs to be in a position to build on that potential.

there just isnt huge amounts to be added to some heartland clubs

many people didnt forecast the last 12 months very well. And we arent in a position to be overly picky. We arent the NRL and we dont have 4 or 5 clubs battling to expand the game
thats all fine (though i think the 'creeping' part is a bit of a red herring) but investors arent queuing up to finance a club in Sheffield or the north east. Id certainly be in favour of the RFL doing what it can to attract them (though i can imagine the fuss if they were to) but we cant demand someone does it. If no one wants to, or has the money to do it, then we simply cant do it
agreed. Though how much they can actually do is limited
well it would still be a licensing process, just a different one. And i would argue that there is always a risk of failure, no one would argue we shouldnt limit it, but that risk is always going to be there. So even if we award a franchise on that basis, the clubs still could fail. Because of that it will always be better to try and fail than not try at all. Because if we try without the risk of failure we dont try at all.



it doesnt. We know it doesnt. It doesnt at Leeds or Hull. Profits get made at other clubs too. We need to show clubs the growth and potential of the sport, and we need to build


its still not good, nor what we should be looking for

i cant speak for anyone else but i certainly dont. Nor do i think its representative of all Widnes fans. Or even a majority, just a fair few that post on here



like many people feel some Widnes fans views are. And you are correct in what you put, except its not a difference, its the similarity. A lot of the arguments put forward by some Widnes fans arent cogent, and i can only see it as ignorant and wrong-headed. It isnt the fact a Widnes fans has put forward an argument, many put forward different one, but the fact a Widnes fan has put forward a particular argument

parts of it. I agree the level of entitlement some Widnes fans show is quite disrespectful to some of the other clubs bidding. Im not sure Barrow are the answer though,

it was in a direct response to a statement by a different Widnes fan which implied that Widnes' promotion to SL was in almost universal agreement, when the reality is far from it.

I think it has certainly helped you form certain views on the subject yes.

This is where you keep falling over mate. Please distinguish between people who are out and out against expansion and those who would like to see the game expand but in a manner which doesn't resemble a car crash. You can't can you? Mainly because you can't scratch beneath the surface. I've seen many posters trying to point this out to you but you're not interested in a having a contructive debate. You are what's known as a troll and yes, stupid people like me keep feeding you. It's like a crack habit. I can't stop - mainly because your stupidity is addictive.

Is that right? It seems very low - there are plenty of RL towns in England where nearly all schoolkids (including girls these days) will have played at some point during the school year - and that comes to a great deal more than 2000 each. Does it mean playing RL for clubs outside of school?

Is that what you think the RFL's Mission Statement should be?

Well HKR and Huddersfield had promotion to play for, and rightly or wrongly this has been taken away.

I agree - when in SL they can use these as bench mark teams especialy HKR, but how can teams that are in the CC do anything more than some are doing? Improving back room staff, Playing in a stadium that is fit for SL, increasing junior development, being self suffiecient without a big backer, steadly increasing crowds, getting to GF or NRC Semi/Finals pushing SL teams close in the CC. Would you say that, this is the right way to go?

pretty much. having a rich backer isnt a bad thing for me.

hull kr were getting crowds of 3000 in NL1 and started improving their ground prior to getting into SL.

once they got into SL they improved their squad and are building their crowds, with hopefully more ground improvments to come

they are now safe as a SL club

Halifax could do the same, esp. with their ground being finished apparently

im happy to see Hull KR and Hull FC in SL. 2 Hull clubs isnt a big deal because they are 2 good clubs

Clubs in NL1 and 2 need to be getting their crowds up, get ground improvements under way and be financially sustainable, as well as have good on field performance.

the door hasnt been shut into SL, its up to clubs to improve themselves.

established teams, outside schools.

penrith the largest have 8000 established juniors

pretty much all schools in nsw and queensland all play RL except the Private ones which only play union, with league not being offered as usual

if we are talking about playing it in school the numbers are heaps more

and you still claim to be pro expansion huh?

yeah thats right, you were a fan of Les Cats before their SL inclusion eh?




you just dont seem the type of person supporting the inclusion in SL of the following clubs in the past :

London, Gateshead or Paris

or in the future :

Toulose, Lyon, Mille, South Yorkshire, Gateshead (again)

when Les Cats were being put into SL hardly any people like you thought it was a good idea. all i heard was nonsense about it failed in PSG, why are we trying again. when they came last or 2nd last and cost widnes relegation from 3rd last, i didnt hear much positive comments on their inclusion then either

buy hey, when their crowds kept growing, a CC final appearance and semi finals appearances, everyone suddenly was always in favour of their inclusion.

For me it comes down to 3 things.

1. Crowds - are you likely to get more that 6,000 avg (a sustainable figure from income and legitimacy)
2. Ground - Is it going to attract people to watch teh game there
3. A finacial backer - any new club is going to lose moeny in its first few years. To survive you have to have someone willing to cover those losses.

HKR were a SL club in waiting (much like Widnes imo). They had the history and pedigree and it is was only a case of when they would get their together and make it happen. That is a very different scenario to starting up a new club in a non RL area and being able to sustain losses for 5-10 years at start up.

i dont think you should compare heartland and expansion clubs the same way.

with an expansion team you have lower expectations, mainly just surviving and growing and a slower rate is the key.

with a heartland team, given there are many already in SL, they should be better than the ones that are currently there

widnes imo offer more than wakey or cas, so im more than happy to see wakey out for widnes, as cas are a stronger club than wakey and the jungle seems a better stadium than BV.

clubs need to look at marketing men and good people in finance to grow.

all heartland NL1 and 2 teams should have a minimum of 3000 crowds, and hopefully 5000. SL crowds have grown a lot whilst crowds below have stagnated. theres no reason why NL1 and 2 crowds cant show the same growth with proper marketing and development

whinging and talking about the past does nothing

Jesus wept.

So why do you do it in EVERY one of your posts?

because i actually recognize the present and look to the future

you look backwards so much you dont know where you are going

ie your measure of success are that fax are still around today and PSG arent?

great measure of success for a heartland club that!