Nope, not my definition. Didn't say it was.


To look at Leeds' week-by-week performances as opposed to a few play-off wins.


All which is absolutely no indicator of the best individual player.


Yep. But we're talking about an individual award, not an award for winning competitions.


Nope, not what I said at all. Try again.


An award is, in fact: "a prize or other mark of recognition given in honour of an achievement."

People don't win awards of merit without recognition.


We're not talking about competitions or a team award. We're talking about an individual award. You're finding this concept difficult to absorb, aren't you?

Yet again: look at the list of previous winners. Most of them weren't champions in the year they won the Golden Boot. Winning competitions is irrelevant where the Golden Boot, for the best player in the world, is concerned.


So now you're making up your own criteria.

If that were true, why isn't every previous Golden Boot winner the key player from the champion team?


He is? He does? Oh right. Which ones?


But not the point of the Golden Boot award.


The 'best team' does not necessarily contain the 'best individual'. Again, the list of previous winners shouts this truth very loudly.


No, it really isn't.


Nope, yet again that wasn't my definition, it was merely a comment. I told you, take a look at the previous winners and see if you can spot the glaring irregularity. Oh yes, they were all better individual players than Sinfield.


Once again, winning as a team is not an indicator of having the best individual player.


I take your point. Barba is a better individual player, whereas Sinfield is a better captain and leader of his team. However, being the captain of a winning team does not automatically even make you their best player, never mind the best in the world. That logic is ridiculous.

But that's not his point is it? His point is that there are aspects of Barba's game that are better than Sinfield's and aspects of Sinfield's game that are better than Barba's. To say 'Barba is a better individual player' is to place more importance on running elusively than on kicking, to make being faster more important than being a great leader, to make supporting your team more important than dictating what happens on the field. But yes, you're right, it's [ihis[/i logic that's ridiculous.

From a fans point of view no, but from a coaches point of view you may get a very different reply - I reckon coaches love KS type players and I suspect this is where it's coming from.

That is who you answered the question when i asked you to define 'best'. Maybe you could stop avoid the question and define it for us? Or you can keep dancing around it and pretending no-one notices.

I can only ask you to actually answer the question, What you have put here isnt an answer as to why we would look at the season in a different format to the one it actually runs under.

Except it is. We have competitions so we have a clear measure of quality.

So considering we know that the aim is to win competitions, why would we judge quality by a different (yet to be defined by you) measure?
It is, i can see why you would like to pretend it isnt, but it is. Either way, maybe you would like to clarify what you meant by [iThat would seem to indicate that, contrary to what you've written, winning competitions is NOT an indicator of who is the best player in the world[/i. Remembering that the Golden Boot is a judgement of quality.

Thats nice, im not sure what relevance you think that has to what i said but it is lovely all the same.

Yes, we are talking about an individual award in the context of a team sport. Where the aim is the success of the team not the success of the individual. Where a players quality is solely what they bring to the team. Im not sure why you think that an individual in a team sport is judged on something other than their contribution to the team.

Except for Andrew Farrell and Stacey Jones, every golden boot winner this millenium has won at least one team competition during the year he wont the Golden Boot. Thats 12 of 14, which would indicate that success is very much a part of judging quality.

Its not my criteria, its the only way to define best.


They pretty much are.
Many, He is a far better open play kicker, he directs a team far better, he is a better passer, he controls a game far better. just for starters.

What other aim is there other than winning games? If you want to judge teams and players on something other than which team wins, maybe diving or gymnastics is the sport for you.

Except it doesnt, as i said, Bar Andy Farrell and Stacey Jones every other golden boot winner this millenium experienced team success.

a pretty try gets you 4 points, just like a scrappy one. Wins are all that matter.

Prove it. lets remove your wigan bitterness and ask you to prove it. Show me some measure of how you come to that conclusion. Prove it.

Yes, it is. An individual player who cant help his team win, isnt a very good player, however much skill you may think he has.

At the start of the season Ben Barba and Kevin Sinfield had pretty much the same objectives. One achieved them, one failed to. The logic that states Barba's failure is better than Sinfields success because it looked prettier whilst he was doing it, is ridiculous.

Well, yes it is, when you're applying that logic to an award for the best player in the world for 2012.

I understand Leeds fans getting defensive, but no-one us saying Sinfield is rubbish. What people are saying is that while was an outstanding captain, he wasn't the best individual player in 2012. The best leader of a side, perhaps, but nowhere near the best individual.

Sinfield's strengths are his kicking, work-rate, his technical nous and his leadership. His tackling is good, his passing is decent but not outstanding, his running is pretty average for SL. To say that those "aspects" of Sinfield's play could qualify him as the best player in the world is, indeed, ridiculous.

You're relying on Leeds' success as vindication of the award. But if leading a side to the championship makes you the best in the world, why have only a couple of previous winners been grand final-winning captains in the same year?

Are you stupid? I answered the question several posts ago. The list of previous winners is a pretty good indicator of who has been 'the best'.


Yes, it is. That is what is generally known as "an answer".


And we have individual awards to acknowledge outstanding individual performances.


See above.


Stop avoiding this question: if winning competitions is an indicator of the best player, why have only a few Golden Boot winner been grand final winners in the same year?


Helping you understand the connection between recognition and an individual award, seeing as you were struggling.


Yes, the aim of RL is team success. Does that mean individual performances shouldn't be recognised and awarded, irrelevant of team success?


They weren't champions of their respective leagues.

I see what you're doing, including the World Cup and Tri/Four Nations. I'd say that's fair enough, cementing your reputation by shining at the highest international standard is a good indicator. Just like Kevin Sinf...oh.


Yes it is, you made it up.


Nope, they aren't. They weren't champions of their respective leagues in the same year in 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1990 (no award 91-9icon_cool.gif 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2010 or 2011.


In your opinion. Why no Man of Steel then?


The aim of playing RL is to win games. Awards such as the Golden Boot award outstanding players for their individual performances. Is that so hard to understand?


They weren't champions of their respective leagues in the same year. Winning an international competition consisting of only 2 or 3 truly competitive teams is largely irrelevant: the best players from each nation will probably be playing and therefore (if you're Aus or Kiwi) have a good chance of winning.


Not when judging the Golden Boot award, as the list of previous winners proves.


I don't need to. The fact the RL world is laughing is a pretty good indicator.




Oh deary me. Do you really believe that? Anyone who doesn't win things is a poor player? Oh, me sides hurt.




Calling Kevin Sinfield the best player in the world because he's a good team player who helped Leeds win the grand final is ridiculous.

Yes sweetheart, the list of previous winners is a pretty good indicator of who has been the best. In fact, considering it is an award for being 'the best' its more than an indicator. What the list of previous winners isnt, is a definition of 'the best', the list of previous winners is just a list of winners, it isnt an explanation of why they are the best, it isnt a definition of 'the best'.

It is an answer, I'll give you that. What it isnt is an answer to the question which was asked.

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that in the context of a team sport, individual performances which dont contribute to team success are meaningless. The performance is only judged as a contribution to the team effort.

12 of the last 14 winners experienced team success in the year they won the award. Your premise is false.


No, it means individual performances can only, and are only judged in the context of their contribution to the team effort.
As you seem to have discovered the respective league isnt the only competition each player plays in. Each of those 12 players (and i only went back to the millenium out of laziness) won team honours. Kevin Sinfield captained his team to an international competition victory this year.

maybe at some point you will show us all your definition of best. Or you could just list players and pretend its the same thing.

Fair enough, lets look at those years,

1984, Wally Lewis won The national panasonic cup, the BRL and State of Origin.
1985 Brett Kenny appeared in a NSWRL grand final and won an Ashes series
1986 Gary Jack won State of Origin and an Ashes series
1987 Hugh McGahan and Peter Sterling didnt win anything,
1990 Garry Schofield won a series against NZ and a test against Australia
1999 Joey Johns drew a SoO series and a tri-nations
2000 Fittler won SoO, a World Cup and appeared in a grand final
2002 Stacey Jones won a minor premiership and appeared in a grand final
2003 Darren Lockyer captained an ashes winning side
2004 Andy Farrell apparently 'must have done something right' playing for an 'iffy' Wigan
2005 Anthony Minichiello won a State of Origin
2006 Darren Lockyer won a grand final, a state of origin and a tri nations
2007 Cam Smith won a grand final, a State of Origin and 2 tests v NZ
2008 Billy Slater won State of Origin and appeared in a Grand Final
2009 Greg Inglis won a 4 nations, the NRL and State of Origin.
2010 Benji Marshall won a 4nations
2011 Jonathon Thurston won State of Origin and a 4 nations
2012 Kevin Sinfield won a WCC, Super League and the Autumn international series.

There seems to be a fairly obvious correlation between success at a team level and winning the golden boot.

I think the process is flawed and it makes it much more likely a 'flashy' player to win it.
You almost got there. The aim of RL is to win games/competitions, Awards such as the golden boot award players for their outstanding contribution toward that.

Except that the Golden Boot publicly states it gives a higher priority to achievements outside the club game, more specifically the International game. International competition is far from irrelevant, even cursory research would have told you that.

Yeah, cos we all remember Wally Lewis bouncing around like Ben Barba, and 2004 Andy Farrell dancing with his twinkle toes



You could just have said 'I cant' it would have been a lot quicker for you.

Yes, in sport, people who arent successful, arent generally that good.

Thinking that 'good team player' is somehow less than 'good player' is idiotic, thinking 'fast' is a better quality than 'good leader' is retarded, thinking 'good captain' has less worth than being featured in 'best nrl tries 2012' is laughable.

Greg Inglis plays for South Sydney

Storm are renowned for taking nobody players, players unwanted and making them part of something special. The cheating jibe is a cheap shot BTW. How many clubs have cheated in the past in Britain / Aus etc. Next you will be telling me that Wigan simply won countless CC / Championships due to money.

Queensland are not gauranteed to win the Origin, NSW are desparate to overturn them and pouting time, money and every effort to do so. It gets closer and closer yet Queensland keep finding a way to add to their record run. Correct me if I am wrong but a great no 9 is a vital ingredient in that success. A 9 that is now captain, something you place greater store in than ability. Incidentally I think Kevin may be better at 9 than 6 or 13 v Australia / NZ. To think Queenland can just beat NSW come what may withut whomever is incredibly demeaning.

Cameron Smith is part of an Origin domination that not even Lewis, Meinga, Miles etc could manage as Maroons.

Origin is ELITE RL. It is a level of RL that Sinfield nor any British player has currently played at.

Why can football get this eright and we cannot. Football allows peers just we do with MOS to get the corrwect decision time and time again. The GB should have died under OR instead of being abused by League Publications to suit their own agenda. Sadler and Drake are a sham.

@Cronus I appreciate your reply and what you're saying but IMO the way worlds best player has been awarded has evolved from just awarded certain aspects of the game. As far as I'm aware there's never been an award for best captain in the world and it's pointless starting with this now so we might as well incorporate this aspect of the game into the golden boot.

@ThePrinter I dig where your coming from with your workmates comments but this isn't the whole picture and the case for every single rugby league fan in the country. Over the past couple of years I've introduced four people to a full game of rugby and only one of them is still interested in seeing the game again after I took him to a very poor match against Wakefield. My other three friends saw big matches against Warrington and they're not interested a jot. Again this is just personal circumstances - everyone on here could take someone to a big game and they'll be converted to rugby league full time!

@Fylde_Warrior Thanks for the history lesson mate but I must stress that nostalgia has a very little stake in the modern game of rugby league whenever we like it or not. However I do think that our sport should embrace it's heritage a bit more in some ways but I guess that for another thread!

I know there's a lot more I could add to this topic but I'm going to bow out now.

Should have known better than getting into a debate with you, it inevitably turns into War & Peace. If Smokey wants to say it, he uses as many words as possible.



You carry on believing a pretty good team player is the best in the world and I'll remember just how good the previous Golden Boot winner of the past were, renowned for their outstanding individual brilliance, not just for being good captains.

You know what's most upsetting: we now have to mention Wally Lewis, Ellery Hanley and King Kev in the same sentence. Good lord.

It did play a fairly hefty part didn't it? Or were Wigan just hoovering up all the nobody players and turning them into something special as well? And the cheat jibe is a comment on the worst cheating our game has ever seen. It was endemic and sinister, and part of the evidence was a letter to Cameron Smith outlining how he would receive his off the books payments. It was you who brought the Storm team being 'torn apart' into this, I'm merely pointing out that it seems he may have been complicit in the circumstances that led to that - doesn't make him a hero in my eyes.



Yes, and wouldn't you agree that having comfortably the better squad to pick from really helps with that? Please tell me if you disagree, but I'd say it's fairly clear who the favourites should be based on the players available, and that's Queensland.



Interesting misquote there, what I've said is that leadership IS an ability, and shouldn't be treated as separate just because it doesn't look great on a highlights reel. Also a great 9 is by no means vital. Cameron Smith has been vital because he is an excellent player, but I would suggest that a very good 9 would stand an excellent chance playing behind that pack and with those backs.



I'd back them to beat NSW with their reserve 9, and if you're completely honest you would too. Wouldn't you? Come on, be honest.



And Sinfield is the orchestrator of a SL domination that is unlikely to be rivaled for decades, but apparently that counts for nothing.



Two things, firstly British players can't play Origin (which I agree is the best part of our game), so neither that or the fact that Australia and NZ chose not to travel North for internationals should really count against Sinfield. Secondly it's 3 games. One of which he lost. You and so many others are very quick to deride Sinfield despite his (surely unarguably) brilliant performances in a brutal and intense play-off series because it's only a few games, but the rules are somehow different for Smith. Interesting don't you think?



Yes, in the five years that MoS has been voted for by players they've got it absolutely spot on every time. Undoubtedly.

As a final note on this, I am not saying that Sinfield is, necessarily, the best player in the world. All I am saying - and I believe that most arguing in his favour are saying the same thing - is that he has earned the right to be considered for the honour. Spectacular does not mean best, and those who cannot help but harp on about Barba clearly value style over substance and while style is great, substance is an absolute necessity.

You could have just said 'you have shown my argument to be nonsense and I would like to retract it but i cant bring myself to do so'.


Yes, its nice that it sticks in your throat. The 'only pretty good' Kevin Sinfield, the too small for the pack too slow for the backs Kevin Sinfield, the jack of all trades master of none Kevin Sinfield, the captain of the perennial bridesmaids, is actually the captain of the dominant force of British RL, the 3 times world champions, the 6 time SL champions, 2 time Harry Sunderland winner, Lance Todd Winner, and Golden Boot winner. The fact you can't bring yourself to recognise the quality needed to achieve that simply makes it sweeter. In 15 years people wont remember the bitterness and excuses people have made, Sinfields record speaks for itself.

You carry watching little Sammy's jinkin sidesteps, ill keep watching Sir Kev lifting trophies.

I would but seeing as you've failed in every regard and just look like a child defending his hero, that would be silly.


Finally the penny drops.

You wont read that in the record books. What you will read is Kevin Sinfield (at least)
7 GF appearances,
6 Super League titles,
6 WCC,
3 WCC wins,
1 WCC MOM award,
5 CC final appearances,
1 CC medal,
2 Harry Sunderland awards,
1 Lance Todd Trophy,
1 Golden Boot,
First man to captain a team to three SL titles in a row,
the only man to captain a team to a WCC and league title win in the same year,
the only man to do it twice,
record points scorer in the WCC,
England captain,
the only man to captain a side to 4 titles,
The only man to captain a side to 5 titles,
The only man to captain a side to 6 titles,
record holder for most consecutive games scored in Super League,
Super league record point scorer

Jim I would pick players as a selection panel over fans or the media. Worse League Publications then manipulated the selection panel, drastically reducing overseas journalists on the premise that there had been little or no international RL in 2012. If that was thje case why when selecting Kevin Sinfield did they refer to England beating the might of Wales and France whilst being seemingly oblivious to the fact Australia and NZ had player each other twice in 2012. To beggar belief Drake was salivating at being able to be photograped in person with the winner of the award. What on earth has that got to do with how you select the best player in the world.

Maybe I am cynical BUT 2012 was the perfect and probably the only year League Publications could pull off this swindle with England not playing top drawer opposition like Aus and NZ. Kevin is no spring chicken either so it was now or never for Sadler Et Al to destroy the integrity of this award.

Kevin Sinfield is a model professional who gives 100% effort every time he steps onto the pitch. He is also an excellent captain. However he plays in a second tier deteriorating domestic competition (for those who think standard are getting better, try putting the top 5 squads of 2012 against those top 5 squads from 1996 onwards). A domstic competition where there are several far more talented / better players than himself. You then look at the NRL and I am not sure Kevin would even be a regular selection in a top 8 NRL club.

Kevin Sinfield is not and never has been the best player in the world.

P.S Nice bit of Wigan envy. Now that was real dominance. Better still achieved DESPITE LEEDS spending more money than themselves. Those Wigan legends turned up week after week, season after season, final after final. Kevin seems to need 3/4 of the season before he gets going. He and his Leeds team stank at Wembley AGAIN. Come the play offs Leeds now play the percentages and hope the other mediocre opposition blow it.

In a second rate competition. I daresay if you delve into amateur sport you will find people with similarly meangless lists. However, if we take your philosophy I daresay you also believe that Shaun Edwards should have won the Golden Boot for several successive years.

If you think the difference between SL and the NRL is as big as the difference between amateur and pro sport your a moron. Its not even as big as the difference between SL and the Championship.

Keep flogging it lad.

"Look! Look! He must be the best! He simply must!"

Well, as part of THE most successful rugby league team in history, a great leader, a great inspiration, a great half-back, a great support player, reader of the game, field kicker, a driven professional, Man of Steel, he MUST have been the best in the world at some point according to Smokey's team-obsessed criteria. After all, lifting trophies is all that counts? Isn't it?

I'll say it now as a Wigan fan. As great as Edwards was, and as loudly as his record shouts, he was never the best player in the world. He was probably not even the best player at Wigan.

Go on Smokey, admit it. Edwards matches your criteria for the best player in the world perfectly. Can you bring yourself to say it must be so?

Finally the penny drops.

And Edwards?

By your logic it's an outrageous miscarriage of justice he was never awarded the Golden Boot.

Why?

Sinfield is judged in relation to his cohort, Edwards to his, any comparison between the two is irrelevant.

And maybe Edwards would have won one between 91 and 98.

The Ballon d'Or in football which has only seen 2 defenders win in the last 35 years only shows the sport focuses too much on the highlight reel players.
And also take a closer look......
- Steven Gerrard voting for old teamMATE Xavi Alonso
- Darren Fletcher voting for old teamMATE Cristiano Ronaldo
- Lionel Messi voting for his current teamMATES Xavi and Ineista
- Iker Casillas voting for current teamMATES Sergio Ramos and Ronaldo
- Gianluigi Buffon voting for national teamMATE Andrea Pirlo
- Argentina coach picking countrymen Messi and Aguero as his top 2.
- Germany coach picking countrymen Ozil and Neuer as his top 2.
- Italy coach picking countrymen Pirlo and Buffon as his top 2.
- Spain coach picking countrymen Casillas, Xavi and Ineista as his top 3.
- Sweden coach picking countryman Ibrahimovic as his number 1.
- 2 time African Footballer of the Year Didier Drogba picking up quite a lot of his votes from African countries.

The Ballon d'Or has about as much integrity as the Eurovision Song Contest, and picking something to do with FIFA to highlight integrity in sports and voting......really???

And as for the integrity of the award which you're so keen on, it's clear that even before the 2013 season has kicked off that NO Super League player deserves to win the award in your mind because you've already got it set in your head that their achievements mean less........bit rich to talk about integrity when you've as good as ruled players out before a game has even been played.

It's not the only time you've looked hypocritical on this thread, you dismiss the SL Playoffs because they're only 4 games but then talk so heavily about State of Origin to enhance Cameron Smith's qualities even though that is only 3 games. You've been quite happy to go back on Queensland history, even pre-Smith, to show just what he's achieved and also Melnourne's recent past but when Sinfield's past is listed you claim this award is about 2012 only and that shouldn't matter. You've also said that fans shouldn't really be listened to when deciding such awards but then preceded to tell us why you (a fan) thinks that it should go to Cameron Smith.

.........................................

As for the other debate going on about highlight reels. Yes a highlight reel of Barba or Tomkins would be more exciting to watch but for any young lad out there right now hoping to make it professional one day, he stands a much better chance in his rugby career if he watches Sinfield closely week-in week-out than he would watching the other 2 even if they don't play Sinfield's position. Illustrated by the fact that Francis Cummings, with one of England's most promising young players on his hands (Bateman) had him meet up with Sinfield to learn from him.

The Golden Boot is for the 'Best Rugby League Player' in the world. What qualities people who vote deem more important is up to them and just because they're different to your's doesn''t make them wrong. They're also entirely free to consider and prefer different qualities each year, their isn't (or they shouldn't be) any rule that states they have to always consider the same certain attributes ahead of others year upon year.

And you know what, these guys aren't just rugby league players for 80mins 30-odd times a year. They're RL players day-in day-out, and no team achieves success without the work they do OFF the field so why can't that be taken in consideration too just for a refreshing change? What goes on in dressing rooms, the team talks, the training pitch, the team bondings, the interviews and media work which Sinfield all takes in his stride as captain.

Some like to point out that Sinfield keeps failing in the CCFinal to demean him. Actually looking at that particular competition only goes to improve his credentials IMO. To experience heartbreak in a CCFinal for a sixth time with time running out to correct it, most men would've slumped into the off-season. To come back only a few weeks later from that with MOM performances to lead your team when they'll all be looking to the captain for inspiration to the GF (and that he also did the same in 2011) shows a character and resolve i've not seen matched by any rugby player. Give me character over elusive running anyday.

People may think someone else should've won the Golden Boot and that's fine with me, but don't dismiss the guy as average by any means because him and his career has been anything but.

That stuck in your throat didn't it?

Apply your ridiculous team-obsessed Golden Boot logic to the most successful player and captain of the most successful team in RL history and all you can squirm out is [i"Edwards may have won it"[/i.

Jog on son, you're laughable.

Why would it?.
I have no problem with Edwards, i think he was a fine player and its a crying shame he isnt involved in our game. I wouldnt have argued against him being a golden boot winner.