P&R between SL1 and SL2. Franchising between SL2 and Championship.

i'd live with that

Depends what it is you're expanding , the sport or SL , as many consider the sport to be SL then it is , the likes of you and me know better

it does spoil all the expansion threads seeing the same anti expansion people posting the same stuff over and over

we get it that you guys are anti expansion at sl level, loud and clear.

As I have said before you know jack about the British game and its fans, your comments just keep reaffirming this.

None of the flat-cappers as we are branded are against expansion of the game, in fact we embrace the idea. However, what we are against is half-ar$ed, ill-thought out, pie in the sky ideas which pay no heed to good business sense and are at the expense of areas where the game is strong at grass roots level. You may like the idea of building a house on sand, but the result is always the same. And before you recite the tired old line of Cats success, just remember that part of France has been strong at grass roots level for a long time.

Back to the original thread, I think Crusaders SL application next time around will be on shakey ground unless they can show some big crowds. Location may be reasonable, but my fear is that its just too much expectation too soon. If they fail in the 2012 round, it think it will be the end for them. However, I am hopeful there will be a Bridgend based team in the championship to continue to build the game down there steadily and without over expectation from the RFL.

i think fax fans should only comment on CC once their crowds can actually break 3000.

and the fact that 2 or 3 season back the club was almost going broke as well, show some financial stability as well.

i just dont understand how you guys who support failed clubs have the nerve to question other clubs. its like the captain of the titanic telling other captains how to run their ships

There you go again just making yourself look like a plonker.

Fax have been around since 1873 which tells me RL has a long history in the town, as well as one of the strongest amateur setups. I also think you'll find that if you look back through history every club has had times of hardship. Bradford almost going bust and surviving on poor crowds, Wigan and Hull both in the old second division in the late 70's early 80's to name but a few. The one thing that stands out is the resilience of British clubs and their ability to bounce back, just refer to Hull KR as a prime example. Fax are no different and are on the up again.

And as for my comments on CC, I think if you take note of other comments I have made that I am an RL fan first and foremost as are 99% of flat-cappers. I dont want to see any club go bust, I just have sensible views about how the game should be expanded. As for CC at Wrexham I just think they will have their work cut out to put together a strong case in the time before the next round of franchises are awarded. Oh and did you see my comment about hoping Bridgend gets a team in the championship? Thought not, because your observational skills are poor, your arguments stale and one dimentional and dare I say it, you have very little to offer this discussion.

an expansionist is someone who thinks that the RFL should take reasonable steps to expand SL when the opportunity presents itself.

not make wishy washy comments about being pro expansion when an expansion club develops grassroots etc and never actually identifying when this has ever happened in england.

the people that make these comments are mostly fans of competing NL1 and 2 clubs who have largely failed over 100 years so they come across as bitter, jaded and biased.

the RFL made a good decision to admit CC into SL. admitting any club into SL is a risk. the risk was well worth it.

when fax become more than a failed club your comments will mean more. now its all just hot air

1873 - 2009 and the crowds are that pathetic?

the club was almost broke recently too ....

thats a great 136 years of building in your heartlands.

Oh dally you really do come from the land of the pixies. Unlike Australia Britain does have strong Rugby Union and Football codes, both of which have been entrenched for many many years and provide a lot of resistance. As such, just parachuting a new club into a distant land and expecting it to be an overnight success at the top level doesnt work. If you can think back to your primary school lesson today I am sure your teacher told you about how you have to sew a seed, nurture it and watch it grow over time. Same principle applies to RL in Britain.

By the way the NL1 & NL2 clubs who have supposedly failed over 100 years might diagree (you show your lack of knowledge of the game once more). Try researching the league and cup successes of Leigh, Widnes, Batley, Oldham, Fax, etc over that period. Also, look up the world record crowd for a single RL game (not the 2-game crap the Aussies fixed). You might find Fax in there (102,000 against Warrington, with an estimated 20,000 more who broke a gate down to enter). Seems to me they might have just played a big part in making the game what it is today.

In the past the RFL have missed the opportunity to establish the game in some more plausible locations which could have played a big part in expansion. At the time the money wasnt there as it is today, otherwise the RL map in the UK could have been quite different. The Cardiff experiment looked very promising at first, as did Nottingham, Carlisle and Mansfield. Kent Invicta not so much. Throughout the flatcappers supported the RFL's efforts, travelling the length & breadth of the country and putting thier money into those coffers. Over recent years there has been a growing league structure at the lower levels in places like Coventry (depsite the problems at the Bears), Birmingham, Leicester and Oxford all offering the potential for further development. If approached with a plan covering a sensible time period, who knows where this could lead. However, the current RFL heads dont have enough vision to see this.

Just a little history and geography lesson for you there dally, which I am sure you will manipulate to make some form of dull, unimaginitive counter against some other poster in future.

harry bath played for warrington that day at odsal.

all that post was more hot air.

again, why over 136 years have halifax managed such poor crowds etc?

i dont care about cup wins etc.

why are most of these clubs s**t?

if you think crowds of 2000 for a club thats been around that long is good, you are sadly deluded

the problem with your game is the so called heartland really isnt

its 6 really strong clubs, 4 others, and the rest are all a waste of time now, and not making any effort to get better.

And Australia is what ? 10/12 strong ones 5/6 others and the rest are a waste of time now , and are making no effort to get any better

Yes, crowds are poor now, they used to be great - like many many many other clubs.

But we're still here aren't we you daft Ocker. Paris aren't are they? Maybe we should do what the taffs have done and move 60 miles in the opposite direction and give it a try there?

Hes a pom Richie

I have a question, just out of interest really.

When the crusaders move was mooted the RFL stated that they were 'not breaching any RL byelaw' or something like that. Would they have breached a byelaw if Wrexham had been 28 miles from Widnes rather than 32 - ie not qualifying for getting the expansion 'tick' on their franchise app? Or does that mileage radius ONLY apply at franchise award time and then you can move where the hell you want? Same goes for stadia - would you be able to win a franchise by saying you were playing at Wembley, only to play a few games there and and then announce you were playing at the Willows?

An official RFL line on this question would be nice.

Of course, the VT on RLFans is exactly the place to expect it, too.

What do you suggest these clubs do? Just give up? Out of interest, what are the crowds like for North Sydney and Newton Jets?

take out 2 sydney clubs being cronulla and easts who add very little in terms of australian RL.

put them in SL and theyd be amongst your best

cronulla has something like 2000 junior kids playing RL in its district.

silly comparison

when SL develops an intensity like the NRL, watch the game grow quite a bit

these failed clubs should look at clubs like Hull KR and Huddersfield who have grown from a similar position into very promising situations.

if they cant progress they deserve what they get really.

newtown get 1000 - 2000 crowds as a feeder club for an NL team

if you arent in the NRL you are insignificant in oz. like it or not, that whats happpening in england too.

if clubs dont have realistic SL ambitions wheres there to go? want can these clubs contribute to RL becomming a bigger sport?

like it or not, if 1/10 expansion club works out, theyll bring more for RL than any of these clubs.

the RFL shouldnt be afraid of trying to expand and failing

the NRL doesnt ask newtown, glebe or annandale fans what it thinks it should do regarding its expansion plans

im just calling it as i see it. 90% of the anti expansion talk is biased / jealous and not constructive critisism

when you see the same people against almost anything to do with expansion in a real sense you see a pattern and form a conclusion

Indeed, but these are surely relative things. The facts are that outside about 6 or 7 clubs, we have clubs that relative to other sports are never going to be 'well supported' or 'well financed'. Getting 7k rather than 4k isnt banging down the doors of investors and sponsors. We need to look at the long term potential of clubs, who may for a few years get lower attendances but we need to allow clubs to be in a position to build on that potential.

there just isnt huge amounts to be added to some heartland clubs

many people didnt forecast the last 12 months very well. And we arent in a position to be overly picky. We arent the NRL and we dont have 4 or 5 clubs battling to expand the game
thats all fine (though i think the 'creeping' part is a bit of a red herring) but investors arent queuing up to finance a club in Sheffield or the north east. Id certainly be in favour of the RFL doing what it can to attract them (though i can imagine the fuss if they were to) but we cant demand someone does it. If no one wants to, or has the money to do it, then we simply cant do it
agreed. Though how much they can actually do is limited
well it would still be a licensing process, just a different one. And i would argue that there is always a risk of failure, no one would argue we shouldnt limit it, but that risk is always going to be there. So even if we award a franchise on that basis, the clubs still could fail. Because of that it will always be better to try and fail than not try at all. Because if we try without the risk of failure we dont try at all.



it doesnt. We know it doesnt. It doesnt at Leeds or Hull. Profits get made at other clubs too. We need to show clubs the growth and potential of the sport, and we need to build


its still not good, nor what we should be looking for

i cant speak for anyone else but i certainly dont. Nor do i think its representative of all Widnes fans. Or even a majority, just a fair few that post on here



like many people feel some Widnes fans views are. And you are correct in what you put, except its not a difference, its the similarity. A lot of the arguments put forward by some Widnes fans arent cogent, and i can only see it as ignorant and wrong-headed. It isnt the fact a Widnes fans has put forward an argument, many put forward different one, but the fact a Widnes fan has put forward a particular argument

parts of it. I agree the level of entitlement some Widnes fans show is quite disrespectful to some of the other clubs bidding. Im not sure Barrow are the answer though,

it was in a direct response to a statement by a different Widnes fan which implied that Widnes' promotion to SL was in almost universal agreement, when the reality is far from it.

I think it has certainly helped you form certain views on the subject yes.

This is where you keep falling over mate. Please distinguish between people who are out and out against expansion and those who would like to see the game expand but in a manner which doesn't resemble a car crash. You can't can you? Mainly because you can't scratch beneath the surface. I've seen many posters trying to point this out to you but you're not interested in a having a contructive debate. You are what's known as a troll and yes, stupid people like me keep feeding you. It's like a crack habit. I can't stop - mainly because your stupidity is addictive.

Is that right? It seems very low - there are plenty of RL towns in England where nearly all schoolkids (including girls these days) will have played at some point during the school year - and that comes to a great deal more than 2000 each. Does it mean playing RL for clubs outside of school?

Is that what you think the RFL's Mission Statement should be?