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| Quote ="rich86"As far as I'm aware there is a rule which states that (your link doesn't work btw)
What I struggle with is why anybody would deliberately knock on and what advantage you get from it?'"
copy and paste the link.
A deliberate knock on would be an advantage if you knock on to stop a pass reaching another player that could score. |
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| Quote ="joetwizzy"copy and paste the link.
A deliberate knock on would be an advantage if you knock on to stop a pass reaching another player that could score.'"
That rule is probably an antiquated hangover from the days of competitive scrums. If one side had a massive advantage in the scrum, they might deliberately knock on so they could roll the scrum down the field.
I know deliberate forward passes exist and the only place I've ever seen them given is on the RL Xbox game. |
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As joetwizzy says rule exists to counter defending players deciding to knock-on deliberately instead of intercepting a pass by catching the ball.
Saddened I can see your point but this would have been extremely dangerous to do especially before limited tackles were brought in given turnover ball often relults in line breaks or overlaps.
I thought this rule was brought in a very long time ago (as in the early part of the 20th century), but rarely seems to be penalised.
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| Quote ="Thoth"As joetwizzy says rule exists to counter defending players deciding to knock-on deliberately instead of intercepting a pass by catching the ball.
Saddened I can see your point but this would have been extremely dangerous to do especially before limited tackles were brought in given turnover ball often relults in line breaks or overlaps.
I thought this rule was brought in a very long time ago (as in the early part of the 20th century), but rarely seems to be penalised.'"
Sky have frequently mentioned and my email from the RFL backed it up that "Rugby League does not have a deliberate knock on rule". Bit strange. |
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There is a rule for deliberate forward pass but not knock on.
I remember playing last year with a lad who was a union convert, and he was expecting me to get sin binned and penalised cause I purposely knocked down a pass from centre to winger about to score. It was just a scrum.
Has there been a change in rules since we brought in about accidental knock ons in a tackle, basically saying that every knock on given is just a player losing an attempt at keeping the ball rather than purposely knocking it down.
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That other code do penalise if you knock on with one hand when you have no chance of recovering/intercepting. You will also see it penalised in the NRL as oposed to a scrum awarded.
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| The rule states that a player will be penalised for deliberately knocking on or passing forward. This does not mean it will be a penalty, which is what I think the OP wanted to know. He will be penalised by way of a scrum with head and feed to the opposition.
In terms of a penalty, one CAN be given for a forward pass:
Quote Penalty for some forward passes
If the Referee is of the opinion that a player in giving a forward pass must have been well aware that the catcher was in front of him then the referee is justified in ruling that the ball has been deliberately thrown forward.'"
(my emphasis)
But other than that, he would normally just be penalised by a scrum.
Quote Scrum for Forward Pass
A forward pass in a passing movement is invariably caused
by misjudgment and is rarely a deliberate offence. Play is
restarted with a scrum after an accidental infringement.'"
So why the reference to a "deliberate knock on", you may ask? Quite easy. Though only understood by experts and select aardvarks. The reason is this:
nearly all knock-ons are deemed accidental, but all knock ons are defined thus:
Quote KNOCK-ON means to knock the ball towards the opponents’ dead
ball line with hand or arm, while playing at the ball.'"
Most people think it is only a knock on if the ball touches the ground or an opponent, or the sticks. Not so. Generally true, but not if you knock the ball forward deliberately - for example, over the head of a defender - and run round him and catch it at the other side.
The judgment for the ref to make, for example in an intercept situation, is whether the intercepting player tried to catch the ball, or whether he deliberately knocked it on, juggled with it and caught it. I would suggest that the fact penalties for deliberate knock ons are rarely if ever given is it is hard to make a call that a player meant to knock on, when catching the ball would be a great advantage, and so officials presume that must have been the player's intention, however optimistic.
But in theory, it could be given. I expect the next one you'll see given will be against the Bulls in the last minute of some key game. But that could be my bias. |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I expect the next one you'll see given will be against the Bulls in the last minute of some key game. [iBut that could be my bias. [/i'"
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| A thread on, say "Ah Van's deliberate knock-on" would never reach the legendary stature of "Joynt's Voluntary Tackle". Just get used to it  |
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Quins were penalised for a deliberate knock last year at Headingley - in about the 79th minute when they were getting pasted anyway - incredibly harsh by the ref to give it at any time but that was just rubbing salt into the wound.
The last deliberate forward pass I saw penalised was in the 1992 World Cup final (technically the receiver was in an offside position when the pass was given).
So both rules have existed but they are as rare as the legendary voluntary tackle!
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| Quote ="tb"A thread on, say "Ah Van's deliberate knock-on" would never reach the legendary stature of "Joynt's Voluntary Tackle". ...'"
Not even if we called it, say, "Ah Van to be alone" ? |
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| Quote ="rich86"What I struggle with is why anybody would deliberately knock on and what advantage you get from it?'"
Maybe a pecuniary one |
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| Quote ="tb"A thread on, say "Ah Van's deliberate knock-on" would never reach the legendary stature of "Joynt's Voluntary Tackle". Just get used to it
'"
When was the last post on that thread? |
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I don't know when the last post was, but it seemed to go on for years. But you may be missing the point: after the first week or two, the one subject that was NOT discussed on the JVT thread was Joyn'ts voluntary tackle.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"The rule states that a player will be penalised for deliberately knocking on or passing forward. This does not mean it will be a penalty, which is what I think the OP wanted to know. He will be penalised by way of a scrum with head and feed to the opposition.
'"
The rules do state a penalty will be given for a deliberate knock-on
"A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on"
penalise is defined as
"is to award a penalty kick against an offending player"
Awarding a scrum is just a means of restarting play, if a player following the 6th PTB kicks the ball outide his 20m and the ball goes out of play on 30 metres from the opponents try-line, would that player be said to be penalised? Because the opposition would be given the feed at the scrum.
The situation is clear deliberate knock-on and deliberate forward pass rules should be wiped from the rule book. The former was first introduced over 100 years ago. |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I don't know when the last post was, but it seemed to go on for years. But you may be missing the point: after the first week or two, the one subject that was NOT discussed on the JVT thread was Joyn'ts voluntary tackle.'"
Not at all FA, was just wondering.... |
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Twenty or thirty years ago aussie referees regularly awarded penalties for 'deliberate' forward passes.
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I wouldn't mind it being used to stop this habit of the marker wildly slapping at the ball at the PTB which seems to be in vogue of late.
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At Salford, I vaguely remember Steve Gibson being sin-binned for a deliberate knock-on.
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Not quite the same, but what happens if an attacking player decides to throw the ball over the defensive line, and regain it himself on the other side, without it touching any defenders? Is that allowed?
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I know the forum rules frown in links but I think here it helps...
www.therfl.co.uk/a_guide_to_the_ ... icial_laws
Laws state:-
"Once play has started any player who is on side or not out of play can run with the ball kick it in any direction and throw or knock it in any direction other than towards his opponents’ dead ball line" which is a catch all clause..
1. A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on or passes forward.
2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed. Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.
3. To charge-down a kick is permissible and is not a knock-on.
4. It is illegal to head the ball in a forward direction.
1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.
A forward pass in a passing movement is invariably caused by misjudgment and is rarely a deliberate offence. Play is restarted with a scrum after an accidental infringement.
If the Referee is of the opinion that a player in giving a forward pass must have been well aware that the catcher was in front of him then the referee is justified in ruling that the ball has been deliberately thrown forward.
If the ball is passed correctly but bounces forward or is blown forward by the wind, there is no infringement and play should continue. (This one amazed me)
There are a few remnants that need tidying...voluntary tackle, deliberate forward pass, and not stopping the clock after tries/for penalties but the laws book is very good!
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I know the forum rules frown in links but I think here it helps...
www.therfl.co.uk/a_guide_to_the_ ... icial_laws
Laws state:-
"Once play has started any player who is on side or not out of play can run with the ball kick it in any direction and throw or knock it in any direction other than towards his opponents’ dead ball line" which is a catch all clause..
1. A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on or passes forward.
2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed. Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.
3. To charge-down a kick is permissible and is not a knock-on.
4. It is illegal to head the ball in a forward direction.
1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.
A forward pass in a passing movement is invariably caused by misjudgment and is rarely a deliberate offence. Play is restarted with a scrum after an accidental infringement.
If the Referee is of the opinion that a player in giving a forward pass must have been well aware that the catcher was in front of him then the referee is justified in ruling that the ball has been deliberately thrown forward.
If the ball is passed correctly but bounces forward or is blown forward by the wind, there is no infringement and play should continue. (This one amazed me)
There are a few remnants that need tidying...voluntary tackle, deliberate forward pass, and not stopping the clock after tries/for penalties but the laws book is very good!
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| Quote ="Thoth"The rules do state a penalty will be given for a deliberate knock-on
"A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on"
penalise is defined as
"is to award a penalty kick against an offending player"
Awarding a scrum is just a means of restarting play, if a player following the 6th PTB kicks the ball outide his 20m and the ball goes out of play on 30 metres from the opponents try-line, would that player be said to be penalised? Because the opposition would be given the feed at the scrum.
The situation is clear deliberate knock-on and deliberate forward pass rules should be wiped from the rule book. The former was first introduced over 100 years ago.'"
I suggest you read my post again as you aren't saying anything different. What I did say was that in most cases the officials would assume that the player was making an attempt to catch the ball and not deliberately knocking it to ground. As I said, if the player deliberately knocks on - including where the ball never actually hits the ground - then yes it is a penalty.
There is no reason why the rules should be removed. There are some cases where they should be applied, though. Quite regularly we do see what I would say are deliberate forward passes. But "deliberate" is as defined in the laws, and is a ref's judgment call. |
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| Quote ="Dave Lister"Not quite the same, but what happens if an attacking player decides to throw the ball over the defensive line, and regain it himself on the other side, without it touching any defenders? Is that allowed?'"
No. That's a deliberate forward pass, because it is a throw towards the opponents' dead ball line, and done intentionally. The offence is committed as soon as the ball leaves the hand i.e. being deliberately thrown forward so whether you intend to catch it yourself, or someone else to, is beside the point. |
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If you want to see a deliberate 'forward pass' visit that site where you can watch videos that for some unknown reason we must never mention and type in "Brian O'Driscoll moment of genius "
Fantastic stuff.
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| Quote ="Thoth"As joetwizzy says rule exists to counter defending players deciding to knock-on deliberately instead of intercepting a pass by catching the ball.
Saddened I can see your point but this would have been extremely dangerous to do especially before limited tackles were brought in given turnover ball often relults in line breaks or overlaps.
I thought this rule was brought in a very long time ago (as in the early part of the 20th century), but rarely seems to be penalised.'"
Could it not be argued that a player is trying to intercept rather than knock the ball out of the way in a pass?
I think it's more to do with the old scrums. |
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