You damn well should be able to. How utterly heartless do you have to be see a player under your employ sustain a serious head injury that ends his career and think your responsibility ends there.

Im pretty appalled that his contract wasnt paid up to be honest and its a crying shame how utterly blase the game is about players who leave it at 30 years of age, often having not earned a whole lot, often with bodies battered and broken down and often with not a whole lot of alternative options

I don't want to get into any legality. But I defiantly would not expect Saints to 'pay up' his contract. Firstly, he played with Saints for 3 of his 13 seasons, thus should Saints pay out his remaining contract or should the New Zealand Warriors shoulder some blame to concussions sustained with them, that had an accumulative effect.

Plus, how can you sue Ben Flower personally? Without suggesting you should sue other players for negligible 'swinging arms' that have also caused him concussions. Both are illegal?

I'm playing devils advocate here.

He resigned and from what I can gather this was his decisions and NOT on medical advice (I maybe wrong)

Secondly, if anyone was to 'pay up' it would be Lances insurance company, I think.

It is obviously a terrible state of affairs but legally a minefield.

I think you are being overly harsh on Saints. They gave him plenty of support and treatment after the Grand Final and had him scanned multiple times to ensure he was able to return to playing. It is even hinted at by Hohaia that the scans showed no reason to stop playing. He also hints at not making a fuss about his symptoms, you are claiming it's negligent that Saints didn't spot the symptoms, how would they? Do all other clubs give their players a memory test to ensure they remember what happened the previous game? I'm entirely sure they don't. Hohaia even mentions being left out of a game the following season due to his symptoms of concussion, which again points to Saints showing due care and attention to his health. Hohaia also mentions wanting to take an extended leave, why would Saints permit that if he had been reporting no ill effects until that point and his scans showed no reason to be concerned?

The best way to resolve this would be a court case. But it seems Hohaia doesn't want any of that, which hints at it's likely outcome as it's clear he has no lingering sense of duty to the club. If it's just because he's an easy going guy who doesn't want the fuss, why allow an interview and go both barrells on the club?

regardless of legalities, Saints owe a moral duty of care to players representing them. Hohaia clearly and obviously suffered a severe head injury. We saw it happen. That led to his retirement. Its incredibly wrong of the game to simply abandon him.

Im not particularly having a go at Saints, im sure many clubs would do the same. Its still wrong.

I think you are being overly generous to Saints. Other clubs probably would act in a similar way. But that is just a bigger problem, not mitigation.

The fact is that head injuries are poorly understood, but that is simply why need to err on the side of caution, and to be proactive about it. We cant take risks because the consequences of being wrong are horrendous.

Ours is a warriors sport, a gladiatorial one, that shouldnt be lost but we as a game are responsible for players safety. If that means a concussion test every week, thats what we have to do, if it means Hohaia takes extended leave to get over it, we support him, if he has to retire, we support him. We do whatever it takes.

If Hohaia wasnt a big name player with 13 years of good pay behind him, if he was a 24 year old fringe player with a wife and kids and mortgage payments to make he may not have been able to make the decision Hohaia has, he may not feel in a position to be so forceful he could very well still be playing and this conversation could be a lot more tragic.

But condemning Saints on the back of an interview is just silly. Of course we can show some sympathy to LH but he has totally gone about this the wrong way and may end up biting him hard in the long run.
We don't know as an absolute what Saints did or did not do, they say they have records (of presumably medical treatments/procedures). What they were and how effective these would be relating to the symptoms again is guesswork here.
As I said I don't doubt that Saints have followed some protocols and procedures, where they enough to get to the bottom of things, was there someone qualified or put forward to speak to LH to try ascertain if there were issues that might have somehow beigf overlooked, we won't know.
Only if this goes further and facts outed about what happened from both parties POV could you make any true judgement and that will probably end in a court.
Unless LH doesn't press further and Saints let the accusations fall by the way which I really can't see happening.
A whole world of shat all round

Morality is irrelevant.

His decision to retire was not solely due to the injuries from the Flower punch. If it was, he could easily sue Flower. This would never happen though. You have multiple cases in the world of football whereby the court has failed to accept another player legitimately ended another players career, negligent, yes, deliberate no. I think Paul Elliott, Dean Saunders case is testament to this.

I have no doubt Lance will be part of the Rugby League unions and have insurance policies to protect against loss of earnings.
Saints, by their statement stood by him, proved him with the best care possible. This was their obligation, you cannot pay him after he resigned. Just because it is sport doesn't mean it holds sway in any other way than civvy street.

fantasy.

Quote ="Towns88"icon_biggrin.gif fantasy.'" How would you know, you goose? I was there at Le Wembley restaurant after a Catalans vs St Helens match, with Sean Long and Jayson Cayless as well as Eammon McManus, and the French television crew led by Rodolphe Pires. Several of us gave up part of our steaks because the restaurant had run out of steaks by the time Eammon and his colleague had ordered. As I wrote earlier, I will never give Eammon anything ever again, because of the way his club has treated Lancelot Hohaia. https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_ ... illon.html

Quote ="Towns88"icon_biggrin.gif fantasy.'" How would you know, you goose? I was there at Le Wembley restaurant after a Catalans vs St Helens match, with Sean Long and Jayson Cayless as well as Eammon McManus, and the French television crew led by Rodolphe Pires. Several of us gave up part of our steaks because the restaurant had run out of steaks by the time Eammon and his colleague had ordered. As I wrote earlier, I will never give Eammon anything ever again, because of the way his club has treated Lancelot Hohaia. https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_ ... illon.html

Great story!

Isn't it just.

That interview gives LH's side of the story, and the rather ill-advised statement from St Helens gives another; the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, and the way this is unfolding, it looks like a court will decide.

I would suggest that the loser in all this will be RL - Flower's actions were indefensible, despite the best efforts of some Wigan fans, and the RFL's response was weak; that could be compounded if it's also found that St Helens didn't act in the players best interests.

Quote ="JEAN CAPDOUZE"How would you know, you goose? I was there at Le Wembley restaurant after a Catalans vs St Helens match, with Sean Long and Jayson Cayless as well as Eammon McManus, and the French television crew led by Rodolphe Pires. Several of us gave up part of our steaks because the restaurant had run out of steaks by the time Eammon and his colleague had ordered. As I wrote earlier, I will never give Eammon anything ever again, because of the way his club has treated Lancelot Hohaia. https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_ ... illon.html'" Goose?! Sacrebleu!

Quote ="JEAN CAPDOUZE"How would you know, you goose? I was there at Le Wembley restaurant after a Catalans vs St Helens match, with Sean Long and Jayson Cayless as well as Eammon McManus, and the French television crew led by Rodolphe Pires. Several of us gave up part of our steaks because the restaurant had run out of steaks by the time Eammon and his colleague had ordered. As I wrote earlier, I will never give Eammon anything ever again, because of the way his club has treated Lancelot Hohaia. https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_ ... illon.html'" Goose?! Sacrebleu!

I have to agree with smokey here. His career ended wearing a Saints shirt.

THey should have had the decency to support him for a while rather than thinking great he has gone lest save some money.


That is what i would expect from the most callous and heartless employer which does not reflect well on saints.

I and most Giants fans criticised the way they dealt with Keith Mason i genuinley think saints fans should think how this reflects on their club.

Quote ="Wigg'n"ST HELENS TOTALLY REFUTE LANCE HOHAIA'S GROSSLY INACCURATE ASSERTIONS www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/5791 Crikey'" That is one very usual statement. The strength of the wording is very odd indeed.

Quote ="Wigg'n"ST HELENS TOTALLY REFUTE LANCE HOHAIA'S GROSSLY INACCURATE ASSERTIONS www.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/5791 Crikey'" That is one very usual statement. The strength of the wording is very odd indeed.

It depends who is telling the truth. If Saints pressured Hohaia, a man suffering symptoms of concussion injuries, into playing as he makes out, I agree entirely and would be disgusted at the club. If Saints are right and Hohaia hid any symptoms from them until he decided to take an extended leave, I can fully understand them refusing that, particularly if the scans at the time were not indicating any issues with his health.

I get it, it's a gag in pretty poor taste in that Hohiai now perhaps has a life changing injury.

Players = pieces of meat, very clever you utter turd.

The fact you continue to labour the point, following other posters responses, merely underlines your petty grasp for attention and your utter gormcloptitude.

What do you think that indicates?

Whoever wrote and published it was no PR person, it's a very very angry riposte, that on the face of it seems to state and be very sure that Saints did everything possible to aid LH and did nothing wrong and that he (LH) is a liar.
I rhink it is just that, a heat of the moment angry reply, it just does not do St.Helens rugby club any favours by doing so in that manner. I don't think it's a shout out as loud as we can with implicit denial because we have something to hide type statemwnt but I sure hope that every single point rebuffed is squeaky clean!

Far better to have said something like
We are shocked and dumbfounded by the published article, we gave Lance all the professional support we possibly could and had his physical well being and as importamtly his mental health at the forefront of our minds at all times.
We as a club recognise that our players give their all for us and it is our responsibility to look after them.

We are hoping to speak to Lance directly so we can understand his grievance as we have being totally taken aback by this.
St.Helens club refutes all the allegations made in the article.

Quote ="knockersbumpMKII"Whoever wrote and published it was no PR person, it's a very very angry riposte, that on the face of it seems to state and be very sure that Saints did everything possible to aid LH and did nothing wrong and that he (LH) is a liar. I rhink it is just that, a heat of the moment angry reply, it just does not do St.Helens rugby club any favours by doing so in that manner. I don't think it's a shout out as loud as we can with implicit denial because we have something to hide type statemwnt but I sure hope that every single point rebuffed is squeaky clean! Far better to have said something like We are shocked and dumbfounded by the published article, we gave Lance all the professional support we possibly could and had his physical well being and as importamtly his mental health at the forefront of our minds at all times. We as a club recognise that our players give their all for us and it is our responsibility to look after them. We are hoping to speak to Lance directly so we can understand his grievance as we have being totally taken aback by this. St.Helens club refutes all the allegations made in the article.'" Eamonn McManus has since issued a clearer, more professional (albeit still rather outraged) statement: m.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/5793 It does make me wonder who issued the first one, which struck me as poorly written and ambiguous as well as excessively emotive.

Quote ="knockersbumpMKII"Whoever wrote and published it was no PR person, it's a very very angry riposte, that on the face of it seems to state and be very sure that Saints did everything possible to aid LH and did nothing wrong and that he (LH) is a liar. I rhink it is just that, a heat of the moment angry reply, it just does not do St.Helens rugby club any favours by doing so in that manner. I don't think it's a shout out as loud as we can with implicit denial because we have something to hide type statemwnt but I sure hope that every single point rebuffed is squeaky clean! Far better to have said something like We are shocked and dumbfounded by the published article, we gave Lance all the professional support we possibly could and had his physical well being and as importamtly his mental health at the forefront of our minds at all times. We as a club recognise that our players give their all for us and it is our responsibility to look after them. We are hoping to speak to Lance directly so we can understand his grievance as we have being totally taken aback by this. St.Helens club refutes all the allegations made in the article.'" Eamonn McManus has since issued a clearer, more professional (albeit still rather outraged) statement: m.saintsrlfc.com/news/page/5793 It does make me wonder who issued the first one, which struck me as poorly written and ambiguous as well as excessively emotive.

It shouldn't matter if he originally hid symptoms from saints. Rugby is a macho sport and players will not want to show weakness, he was probably worried about his future if he admitted to it (turns out he was right to be) and if he was suffering from concussion probably wasn't thinking straight! He will have been under pressure from coaches, teammates etc to play on. Shontayne Hape talked about hiding concussion symptoms for similar reasons.
If a player suggests he has these symptoms then regardless of what any scans say he should be taken seriously- especially given his history that they are aware of regarding the flower incident.
MRI scans do not always show up problems anyway- cell damage is at a microscopic level and won't always be visible and the medical team at saints should know that so to use that excuse is rubbish.
To say because he hid it he should be refused the proper care when he admits his problems is ludicrous.

You've not read any of what I posted have you? Re-read the statements from Hohaia and the club. The club is alleging that Hohaia raised no symptoms between October 14 when he went on holiday after the Grand Final, until the day he resigned as a player. During that time he was assessed for head injury, McManus claims the club have meticulous records of this. Hohaia then demanded to be paid after having resigned. What do you expect them to do in that scenario?

If you resigned from your job, claiming injury caused 7 months prior that you hadn't notified them was bothering you, and demanded that they continue paying you, how successful do you think you would be with that?

If Hohaia is telling the truth, he should have raised his concerns at the time. He should have gone to his Captain, at the time the head of the player's union and asked for help. Failing that he could have gone to the RFL directly. He didn't do any of that and unless a court case uncovers wrong doing on Saints' part, it appears he's just bitter at the club for not paying his remaining contract up, which is a completely unreasonable ask if he hasn't been signed off medically.

And you haven't read anything I've said either.
I've said it shouldn't matter whether he raised it later or immediately- it shouldn't be dismissed. You don't know he "demanded" to be paid. You don't know what the conversation was that led him to hand in his resignation. He says it was play or leave and that's it- so should he have carried on playing knowing there was something amiss which hadn't been picked up by scans?
Yes he probably should have brought it up prior- but I've given many reasons why he- and players in similar situations haven't done so. If saints is so unapproachable then that in itself tells a story.
And yes- if I'd have sustained a serious injury at work that prevented me from continuing then I would expected to be compensated for it!!!!! He probably hoped the symptoms would stop and hed be fully recovered- that clearly didn't happen. The fact it was 7 months prior and he was still experiencing problems suggests it's serious!
And of course he's bitter- why wouldn't he be! It's not his fault he had to retire, it's not his fault he sustained concussive injuries.
We should be looking after the players who put their bodies through the ringer not dismissing them. These guys end up with hip replacements in their 30s! Knee and back problems from middle age,
They aren't inanimate objects to be discarded when their parts don't function because of misuse!

According to BBC Sport website LH has clarified his remarks to make it clear that he has no criticism of the medical staff at Saints, his criticism lies with management. Suggests to me that medically Saints followed professional protocols in terms of making sure he got proper treatment but despite that he felt he could no longer continue his career.

Reading between the lines he may have expected them to pay up his contract and they were reluctant to do that without firm medical grounds that he was unfit to continue playing. I would imagine that if there were firm medical grounds for retirement this would never have happened as insurance would have been in place to cover the cost of paying up the contract.

So we're in a difficult situation, it's perfectly reasonable that LH would want to quit if he feared long term ill effects from his condition, you cannot get your health back once it is seriously compromised. On the other hand it is reasonable for his employer not to want to pay him off on medical grounds if those medical grounds haven't been sufficiently proven. I genuinely believe LH has problems caused by the physical effects of a long and tough career, including the Flower incident, but at same time it would be a difficult precedent for clubs if veteran players (possibly on good contracts) had the right to be paid up early because they didn't feel able to continue but the medical case hadn't been proven.

And we still will not know if those protocols were sufficient unless it comes out in a court case.

LH himself is not qualified to know, it's also not just about scans either, if you have a player shying off and you know them, also know what has happened previously and that medical scans/investigation haven''t (so far) revealed anything, then either the player is making up excuses (lying about his symptoms as a reason not to play) or there is another issue that has not being mentioned by the player.
This could possibly be psychological as well as physiological stuff not found by the scans.

Just because a particular investigation/scan doesn't show up an issue being described by a person (or not mentioned at all) it doesn't mean it does not exist. By definition of what saints have admitted there was still a problem, was it really that dfficult to understand that LH was (by his statement) still sufferin? Even if he wasn't saying directly, his own actions and demeanor alone would have being enough to flag up something was still wrong I would have thought.

it looks like Saints didn't know what else to do after following their protocols and thought they had done everything and it was shape up or ship out and LH shipped out.

Whatever the outcome I still think because there is this expectation of players to batter themselves week in, week out that we need to understand that they are still just human beings with the same mental frailties as everyone else, still worry about their own well being and future for themselves and their families.

IMHO the salary cap has a hand in this, the lack of having big enough squads and at times having to ask players to play through injury because of lack of depth and that win at all costs mentality can lead to players having longer term life injuries and/or early retirement.

A geeater understanding of this particular group of people (male sportsmen in a very macho environment) so that it's easier for them to come forward without fear, embarrassment or shame from their own friends and team mates when something is wrong is required in all sports with this group, not just RL.