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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"go wash your mouth out'"
Changed that as well have you ? , why doesn't that surprise me
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| Quote ="Starbug"Changed that as well have you ? , why doesn't that surprise me'"
who the hell ever told you I was an Arsenal fan?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"=#FF00008 years of continual growth,
=#FF0000The return of international RL
Profit making Tri-nations having just been expanded to the quad nations, still making a profit.
The Multi-million pound profit making 2008 world cup.
Massive increases in average crowds,
more amateur players than ever before.
The amateur game played in more areas than ever before.
Les Catalans.
More money invested in the grass-roots of the than ever before
The Grand Final
=#FF0000The RFL clearing its multi-million pound debt
The RFL making a profits year in year out
=#FF0000French RL
Selling the TV rights for SL to NZ, Australia, The US, the Middle East, Eastern Europe and Russia
=#FF0000The WCC
More development officers than ever before'"
We didn't play any internationals in the 80,2 and 90,s
A debt caused by a disasterous 2000 WC
They didn't play RL in France till 1996
Didn't Widnes and Wigan win the WCC ?
There have been some very major successes , most notably in playing numbers and the spread of those playing numbers , and also in the running of the sport at international level with the 3/4 nations and the pacific and european cups
However the professional and semi professional parts of the sport have not moved on in any major way , the vast majority are either deep in debt or are reliant on individuals non repayable investment to continue operating at all levels
On a playing side we have progressed nowhere at international level and are no nearer winning a major competition
I notice you havent mentioned the Challenge cup at all , unsurprisingly , it is in deep decline as shown by it's possible removal from the special list
You say ' massive ' increases in spectators , I'm not sure on that one , are you saying they have doubled across the board since 96 ?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"who the hell ever told you I was an Arsenal fan?'"
Liz said the same thing but was Royally caught out....................
This is you isn't it?
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| Quote ="Starbug"We didn't play any internationals in the 80,2 and 90,s
'" unfortunately the 90s saw a big reduction in internationals due to things like the super league war
Quote A debt caused by a disasterous 2000 WC '" among other things. The RFL had NEVER made money and had incurred debt EVERY year up until the early 2000s. Now it regularly makes money it can re-invest in the game
Quote They didn't play RL in France till 1996
'" i didnt say that. I just said french RL had had major success in the since the inception of SL
Quote Didn't Widnes and Wigan win the WCC ? '" Again i didnt say it didnt exist before. Simply that it had become successful since SL.
Quote
There have been some very major successes , most notably in playing numbers and the spread of those playing numbers , and also in the running of the sport at international level with the 3/4 nations and the pacific and european cups '" aswell as bringing in millions more in sponsorship, corporate hospitality and tv rights among many other things
Quote
However the professional and semi professional parts of the sport have not moved on in any major way , the vast majority are either deep in debt or are reliant on individuals non repayable investment to continue operating at all levels '" this was even worse prior to SL. So making that area better
Quote On a playing side we have progressed nowhere at international level and are no nearer winning a major competition'" This is unfortunately a negative over the past few years. Though i would argue for the first 6-7 years of SL the quality of player improved dramatically. Unfortunately over the last 5 or so it seems to be declining a bit
Quote
I notice you havent mentioned the Challenge cup at all , unsurprisingly , it is in deep decline as shown by it's possible removal from the special list '" It is. It needs to adapt or die.
Quote You say ' massive ' increases in spectators , I'm not sure on that one , are you saying they have doubled across the board since 96 ?'" i dont know about across the board. But i wouldnt think we were miles off that
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| The French having their own professional superleague will never happen for several reasons:
1) The French teams that join Superleague are going to make their fame and 'fortune' that way. Why would they abandon playing in a high profile European league to set up a risky, lower quality national league?
2) The sporting world is moving towards continental/intercontinental Superleagues. Why should we make a retrograde step by reverting to a national league when the original intention was for it to the be the European Superleague? Top class national leagues will one day be a thing of the past, we need to market our competition as the equivalent to the Champions League or the Heineken Cup, even if we only have 2-3 French teams in it.
In any case Toulouse should have priority over Stade Francais or any other expansion team. They have been in existence for a long time and have worked hard to join Superleague, narrowly missing out to Catalans the last time around. Before a Stade Francais application was considered i would want to see what they could do in the Championship and what sort of crowds they got.
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| Quote ="Dan155"The French having their own professional superleague will never happen for several reasons:
1) The French teams that join Superleague are going to make their fame and 'fortune' that way. Why would they abandon playing in a high profile European league to set up a risky, lower quality national league?
2) The sporting world is moving towards continental/intercontinental Superleagues. Why should we make a retrograde step by reverting to a national league when the original intention was for it to the be the European Superleague? Top class national leagues will one day be a thing of the past, we need to market our competition as the equivalent to the Champions League or the Heineken Cup, even if we only have 2-3 French teams in it.
In any case Toulouse should have priority over Stade Francais or any other expansion team. They have been in existence for a long time and have worked hard to join Superleague, narrowly missing out to Catalans the last time around. =#FF0000Before a Stade Francais application was considered i would want to see what they could do in the Championship and what sort of crowds they got.'"
Irrelivant , ask Smokey
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA":1sq0ixvxwho the hell ever told you I was an Arsenal fan?'" and instead being a Manchester United fan , you accused me of not following my home town club and you then stated you were an Arsenal fan , I'm not surprised you have forgotten , you change colours more than a Chameleon
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| Quote ="Starbug"You did , I was discussing the Rhino's and part of their success being the demise of the Leeds scumbags , during that conversation you criticsed me for not supporting firstly Leigh RMI and then Wigan athletic [ I have on occaision watched both when they were both non league and instead being a Manchester United fan , you accused me of not following my home town club and you then stated you were an Arsenal fan , I'm not surprised you have forgotten , you change colours more than a Chameleon'"
None of this ever happened. Honestly. I was born and raised in Leeds and support Leeds Utd (unfortunately).
What a random thing to make up
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| Quote ="Starbug"Irrelivant , ask Smokey'"
it is irrellevent
Stade Francais would be better served spending £1m on a top class youth academy and attracting the best french 16-20 year olds. Putting them in the SL academy for two years and spending two years preparing for SL than spending that money attracting older players who will only play for them for two seasons in the lower leagues
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| apologies if this is not relevant but it is "irrelevant"...
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| I was pro the idea of Toulouse joining the Championship but on reflection I agree with Starbugs point and think it's a pointless exercise for a french club.
The catalans model was by far the best to follow and I fail to see the point in wasting time and resources all round in the Chp.
If a team like Toulouse wanted to stay in the Chp permanantly, maybe, different issue but there's no point in using as a stepping stone
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| Quote ="Dico"I was pro the idea of Toulouse joining the Championship but on reflection I agree with Starbugs point and think it's a pointless exercise for a french club.
The catalans model was by far the best to follow and I fail to see the point in wasting time and resources all round in the Chp.
If a team like Toulouse wanted to stay in the Chp permanantly, maybe, different issue but there's no point in using as a stepping stone'"
I'd say the opposite that there is no point in Toulouse being there permanently. If it isn't a stepping stone to Sl either in 2012 or 2015 then a lot of time and money has been wasted.
Though I don't see why they couldn't have built a team in Elite 1. As you say Catalans did so.
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| Quote ="Dan155"The French having their own professional superleague will never happen for several reasons:
1) The French teams that join Superleague are going to make their fame and 'fortune' that way. Why would they abandon playing in a high profile European league to set up a risky, lower quality national league?
2) The sporting world is moving towards continental/intercontinental Superleagues. Why should we make a retrograde step by reverting to a national league when the original intention was for it to the be the European Superleague? Top class national leagues will one day be a thing of the past, we need to market our competition as the equivalent to the Champions League or the Heineken Cup, even if we only have 2-3 French teams in it.
'"
Yes agree with that. I understand that for some the national leagues is still a model to follow but it just won't happen. If French RL clubs are in a European SL with TV money from different countries why would they commit financial suicide to go in a smaller national league to play smaller teams? It seems to me as likely as the Broncos leaving the NRL to play in Queensland Cup. It would just not make sense for them.
And from my point of view, a pan-European competition is much more fun.
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| Quote ="Dico"I was pro the idea of Toulouse joining the Championship but on reflection I agree with Starbugs point and think it's a pointless exercise for a french club.
The catalans model was by far the best to follow and I fail to see the point in wasting time and resources all round in the Chp.'"
Yes, the Championship is actually quite straining for the finances of the club as it does not raise that much the visibility of the club in France while it requires to invest much more in the wage bill... during 3 years. Not sure this is the best use of the club's time and money to make it an SL club.
Concerning the SF I don't think that proposing 3 years in Championship to the SF first would be the right way to proceed. SF is one of the richest RU clubs in Europe, if they build an SL project with serious financial guarantees, offering them to have first a spell in second tier division for 3 years would be a bit... well weird.
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| Quote ="Hedgehog King":3jmm8qndI'd say the opposite that there is no point in Toulouse being there permanently. If it isn't a stepping stone to Sl either in 2012 or 2015 then a lot of time and money has been wasted.
Though I don't see why they couldn't have built a team in Elite 1. As you say Catalans did so.'" , but it was of no benifit to the Championship 1 clubs as they would never get the opportunity to play them , because they were excempt from relegation ,
Toulouse should have been specifically told that they were going into SL in 2012 , and that they would play a full round of games in the Championship in 2011 to prepare , these games would not count on the 2011 chapionship season table and would be funded by the SL clubs , also their inclusion would not affect the inclusion of a Championship club moving up to SL in 2012
Not difficult , it just needed some bollox from the RFL
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| Quote ="FrogRL"Yes, the Championship is actually quite straining for the finances of the club as it does not raise that much the visibility of the club in France while it requires to invest much more in the wage bill... during 3 years. Not sure this is the best use of the club's time and money to make it an SL club.
Concerning the SF I don't think that proposing 3 years in Championship to the SF first would be the right way to proceed. SF is one of the richest RU clubs in Europe, if they build an SL project with serious financial guarantees, offering them to have first a spell in second tier division for 3 years would be a bit... well weird.'"
Money doesn't necessarily equal success. Paris St Germain also had deep pockets but the rugby league side lasted only two seasons.
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| Quote ="Hedgehog King"Money doesn't necessarily equal success. Paris St Germain also had deep pockets but the rugby league side lasted only two seasons.'"
wrong.
PSG had very poor finances.
they didnt get to keep much of the gate takings as it went to the company owning the ground.
but hey, ignore the facts.
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| Quote ="dally messenger"wrong.
PSG had very poor finances.
they didnt get to keep much of the =#FF0000gate takings as it went to the company owning the ground.
but hey, ignore the=#FF0000 facts.'"
The facts were that not many people were interested in paying to watch them , once all the free tickets stopped their attendances were abysmal
But lets not let the truth get in the way eh
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| Quote ="dally messenger"wrong.
PSG had very poor finances.
they didnt get to keep much of the gate takings as it went to the company owning the ground.
but hey, ignore the facts.'"
In this version of reality Paris St Germain is the name of one of France's leading soccer clubs......
Just as Stade Francais are a leading rugby union club.
Are you saying that Stade Francais are richer than Paris St Germain (soccer club dally)?
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| Quote ="Starbug"The facts were that not many people were interested in paying to watch them , once all the free tickets stopped their attendances were abysmal
But lets not let the truth get in the way eh
'"
Well the story is complex.
* Even if the PSG in itself is rich, Rugby is not its activity. It was plugged on the club. This meant that the ability/willingness of the club to face difficulties was certainly smaller than it would be for SF for which a long term investment in RL is more meaningful.
* The tickets were free in Paris, which means that the income of the club was not that good. It was meant to be a starting commercial trick to bring the crowd in the large stadium which is Charletty (20,000) but the crowd dwindled down with the bad results.
* More importantly the PSG project was backstabbed by the French federation and the French clubs who saw it a a merceneray project not in line with their own interest. Clubs only lent their player for the first year, and in the second year refused to provide them full stop. As a consequence the team was filled with Australians which was very costly and perhaps not the best to attract local crowds.
Overall, it a was a hastily designed project, without the support of the French clubs and federation, with a club which has not much interest in rugby per se. It could have worked if Parisians had rushed to the gates naturally, but it did not happen.
The good thing with SF is that the situation is different.
* It is a RU club with a large fanbase interested in it, a RL club playing in their home ground would from the start benefit from a part of their supporters. The SF chairman is an entrepreneur who excels in attracting crowds. He broke the world record of attendance for a national division game by filling the Stade de France for the SF (SF was in third division when he took over the club).
* The SF project is now fully backed by the French federation as the Dragons experiment has shown them that SL is the only way to save French RL from slow death.
* I am not sure that the PSG had lots of cashflow as the football team creates debt. On the contrary SF has lots of money to use, even more with the creation of a salary cap in RU (7 million euros while its current wage bill is 20 millions).
Frankly, when the RFL saw the SF approaching them, I think they must have rubbed their hands.
It does not mean everything must be given to the SF. This club needs to give strong guarantees. But if it does (and I am pretty sure it can), then 3 years in Championship would just be to forego the benefits of its inclusion right now. Also, Laporte (former SF and French national team coach) who is carrying the project for the club may find a better job that three years as the coach of team in a second tier division. The opportunity is here now for the taking...
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| Quote ="Hedgehog King"In this version of reality Paris St Germain is the name of one of France's leading soccer clubs......
Just as Stade Francais are a leading rugby union club.
Are you saying that Stade Francais are richer than Paris St Germain (soccer club dally)?'"
im saying PSG rugby league club had very poor finances.
anyone that says they were good doesnt know what they are on about
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| Quote ="FrogRL"Well the story is complex.
* Even if the PSG in itself is rich, [uRugby is not its activity. It was plugged on the club. This meant that the ability/willingness of the club to face difficulties was certainly smaller than it would be for SF for which a long term investment in RL is more meaningful. [/u
* The tickets were free in Paris, which means that the income of the club was not that good. It was meant to be a starting commercial trick to bring the crowd in the large stadium which is Charletty (20,000) but the crowd dwindled down with the bad results.
* More importantly [uthe PSG project was backstabbed by the French federation and the French clubs [/uwho saw it a a merceneray project not in line with their own interest. Clubs only lent their player for the first year, and in the second year refused to provide them full stop. As a consequence the team was filled with Australians which was very costly and perhaps not the best to attract local crowds.
Overall,[u it a was a hastily designed project[/u, without the support of the French clubs and federation, with a club which has not much interest in rugby per se. It could have worked if Parisians had rushed to the gates naturally, but it did not happen.
The good thing with SF is that the situation is different.
* [uIt is a RU club with a large fanbase interested in it[/u, a RL club playing in their home ground would from the start benefit from a part of their supporters. The SF chairman is an entrepreneur who excels in attracting crowds. He broke the world record of attendance for a national division game by filling the Stade de France for the SF (SF was in third division when he took over the club).
* The SF project is now fully backed by the French federation as the Dragons experiment has shown them that SL is the only way to save French RL from slow death.
* I am not sure that the PSG had lots of cashflow as the football team creates debt. On the contrary SF has lots of money to use, even more with [uthe creation of a salary cap in RU [/u(7 million euros while its current wage bill is 20 millions).
Frankly, when the RFL saw the SF approaching them, I think they must have rubbed their hands.
It does not mean everything must be given to the SF. [uThis club needs to give strong guarantees.[/u But if it does (and I am pretty sure it can), then 3 years in Championship would just be to forego the benefits of its inclusion right now. Also, Laporte (former SF and French national team coach) who is carrying the project for the club may find a better job that three years as the coach of team in a second tier division. The opportunity is here now for the taking...'"
I've underlined the bits which are key.
Rugby league has a history of soccer clubs investing in add-on rugby league sections in the hope of raising extra cash for their main interest and when the expected returns don't materialise the rugby league team gets abandoned. It happened to PSG and it has happened 6 or 7 times in the UK.
Stade Francais offer the possibility of a different outcome but I think it is naive to assume that since they are a "rugby" club that their motivation is pure. Are they genuinely interested in rugby league or are they just hoping to make some cash?
The other thing being the involvement of the FFR13, whilst you say that this time they are on board, I can well imagine that not everybody is keen, in particular Catalans and Toulouse. I would like to see "co-operation" in practice rather merely promised.
The other issue is that crowds haven't materialised at Quins RL despite their involvement with the large Harlequins rugby union side. It seems that fans' club ties don't extend to following a side of the same name in a different sport in London and they may not in Paris either.
Again with the salary cap, the English union clubs have a salary cap but it is not enforced, I don't think any side has ever been punished for breaking it and it hasn't prevented big name union sides from getting themselves into financial trouble. Will France be different?
I'm not keen on Laporte being coach either just as I wouldn't want Clive Woodward to take over at Harlequins RL. His credentials as a union coach are beyond reproach but this is rugby league we are talking about.
All in all I think 2012 is too early and unless the Stadistes were prepared to put down a large sum of money as a deposit, I would be worried about them doing a Crusaders on us. Toulouse are a better bet right now (and they need to have a good season on the field).
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| Quote ="dally messenger"im saying PSG rugby league club had very poor finances.
anyone that says they were good doesnt know what they are on about'"
I didn't say that the rugby league club had good finances. I said Paris St Germain were one of France's leading sporting teams, perhaps THE leading one after Olympique Mille (back then anyway). That things didn't work illustrates that cash alone isn't enough if the backer isn't really committed.
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