That's got to be one of the funniest posts on here for ages



Bigger trouble ahead methinks - wonder why I get a feeling of deja vu?

Hold your horses there pal.
First up, I posted a series of figures regarding the income of Bradford Bulls as part of an explanation as to why they were in need of further UNSCHEDULED funding from their owner. You accused me of making stuff up!

I responded with links to every set of figures I had used, but instead of you admitting you were wrong, you pointed out that OK has actually already sunk 800k into the club, on top of this 900k. I can't see how this added any weight to your premise that Bradford aren't in the crapper, but I reposted all the financial ins and outs including the scheme by which next years ST could be paid for this year.

Why don't ye revisit all the facts before you reply again?

£180 season tickets x 6,500 = £ 1,1700,000
1/2 Sky Money = £600,000
Sponsors Money = £300,000
2,250 extra fans per game @ £20 = £4,500,00

Before a pint, pie or replica shirt has been purchased, Bradford Bulls have seen a 2013 income of £2,520,000. Let's say that the Pies, Pints and shop takings come in at £10.00 a head per game....so add £850,000 to the kitty so far and you get an income of £3,370,000.

Now, your owner has now ploughed an additional £1,700,000 into the coffers of the club and we have established that after the Council Loan and July Wages are settled, there is £500k left in funds for the rest of the season.

London and Catalan will bring few fans.....£5 a ticket for London. There are Wages to be paid for August (£200,000), September (£200,000) and October (£200,000) before the season ends and some players leave whilst some join, then you start the yearly cycle again November (£200,000), December (£200,000), January (£200,000), and season starting February (£200,000)....so, the income from London, Catalans and Huddersfield games (£100,000 at best) + £500,000 in funds in the bank will be expected to cover 7 months wages (£1,400,000), rent on the ground al the other running costs before a ball is kicked in 2014.

I am not saying Bradford won't be there in 2014......what I am saying is currently, the figures just don't add up......they don't even come close to adding up.

Bradford are assured of £600,000 from SKY next year, as well as £300,000 sponsorship money. They have targeted 10,000 ST holders £1,800,000 and that in turn will produce another £1,300,000 in residual revenue....£4,000,000.

With an income of £3,400,000 this year, they have required another £1,700,000 just to pay the wages.......if they get their 10k ST's next year, they are still coming up £1,100,000 on the running costs of 2013......which I have already shown they will end with a deficit after the Wages to December are paid.

Please...re-read the above maths before you reply.....other than the assumption that a residual spend at a game is £10 a visit including, beer, programmes, pies, replica gear etc it is all based on published fact!

There are some assumptions in there that might alter your calculations slightly. The season ticket number of 6500 may include children, concessions and also the 'half-season' ticket promotion we offered. In reality only the club owners know the full extent of revenue generated by season tickets.
I'm also not 100% sure on how much money we actually get from sponsorship, and how it is distributed over the term of the sponsorship.
The income from away supporters is another assumption that might not be wholly accurate. Not every team brings 2,250 supporters, and they certainly won't all be paying £20 to get in.
The £10 per head for food/drink/merch is another figure open to suggestion - I don't think the reality will be anywhere near that but w/e.
We don't know how much the council loan was for, nor do we know the rate of interest. Or indeed any other borrowings the club may have.
Then you have left out the small matter of VAT, rent, rates, utilities, upkeep of the ground, marketing and everything else that goes into the running of a RL team and indeed any other business.

Ryan Whitcut is quoted as saying that Omar has covered £840k to date, and recently put in another (supposed) £900k which is to be used over this season and next. The split was not revealed, and it may not even be £900k for all we know.

I am hoping that the owners at least have the competence to prepare budgets for several outcomes depending on certain variables (our final league standing in 2013, 2014 season ticket sales, 2014 wage bill etc.).
Omar and his team may not have much experience in running a RL team, but he has several successful businesses now so I have hope that he will at least have some small idea of what he is doing.

If I am 50% out on my calculations, then Bradford will still need to fill a 600k hole in 2014 over and above the 600k loss they will make before February 2014.

The Wages are 200k a month...August through to January is 6 months, so 1.2 million before the season starts......they have 500k in the bank and only the prospect of Huddersfield bringing any away fans.

2014's figures are based on getting 10,000 ST sales....that's a 35% increase at static prices....a MASSIVE ask.....if they only add 20% ( a brilliant result) then they are a further 400k down on projected revenue.

I am not talking about any running costs other than wages here, because we don't have figures on the cost of rent etc, but the reality is, the sums do not add up.

Bradford will have received over 5,000,000 in revenue in 2013 and could quite possibly be 600k short by the end of the year.....next years projections without more cash from your owner do not look healthy...at all!


BTW...I never said away fans brought 2,250....I worked on 6,500 ST's and an average of about 8,750...there will be Bradford casuals in there.

No, your figures don't look healthy. However, the majority of your figures are estimates based on educated guess work and not in possession of all the facts regarding the bulls income. Maybe that's why the figures don't add up?

Fine I am 75% out.....Bradford are still in a £300,000 hole this year and next!
By the way, I estates the turn over of London broncos to within 8% last year and the rest of sl by an average of 15%.......it's more than educated guesswork

Also sky money is paid monthly so we still have 200k of that to come in this year (4 instalments at 50k each).

And I was only 5 numbers away from winning the lottery on Saturday. The fact is you're basing your argument on incomplete data so it's always going to be skewed in favour of the point you're trying to make.

So you don't the validity of my assertion even though I have pointed out that if I was 75% wrong (I ain't by the way) it just doesn't add up?
It's a long river in Egypt pal!

There is a good chance you are entirely wrong and don't have a clue about Bradfords finances.

Where did you do this?

Really? What part of my maths is wrong?
1.7 million from owner
600k from sky
300k from sponsor
6500 season tickets
8750 average
London and Catalan being poor draw cards
200k loan from council
Missed wages payment

Bradford will turn over close to 5 million this year including 1.7 million from an owner who said his total expected investment was 2 million. Next year, if they miss the 10k st target, they are in a massive hole again....... Does the owner have another 1.7 million he can refinance!

So that was not what you meant@ Well then, let's see what you said:



Any person familiar with English would take that as a contrast - between what they DO aspire to, and what they SHOULD aspire to. Thus you said that the Bulls should aspire to self sufficiency, and that they should not aspire to paying DD charges because they have run out of cash.

Now, you tell us that you did not mean they should or do aspire to cash flow issues. Fair enough, let's run with that. So what else did you mean?

At the moment, it seems your meaning was:


i.e. "THIS thing is what you should aspire to - not THAT thing". But if they don't aspire to "THAT thing" then what's the point of mentioning it?

But you may shed further light, so please feel free. If you can find time away from your bar-room accountant drivel, of course.

PS -it's really not "maths". "Arithmetic" is the word for stuff like simple adding up,

Really...you want to keep digging by hitting the pedant button?




You were wrong then and guess what.....repeating your error doesn't make it any less wrong the second time.

I never suggested that the bulls aspire to cash flow issues and no matter of wriggling on the hook is going to make it any different.

Back on topic......is there a sweep on what month the first save Bradford bucket collection will take place in 2014?

Well the most obvious part of your maths that is wrong is that you are counting both the missed wages payment and the money used to make that payment, thats just stupid. Also you are stating that the £900k invested is to cover this year and using it to create you £1.7m shortfall yet Omar Kahn has stated that this £900k investment was to cover shortfalls from this year, when it has been quite clearly stated that it is to cover shortfalls for this year and next.

You have also missed out the fact you don’t know all of Bradfords income streams, you don’t know how much they take from renting out the stadiums for weddings for instance, you don’t know what their sponsorships deals are this year and whether they are the same next. You dont know their corporate deals, we could all just accept, there is quite a lot you don’t know.

Sponsor money from small sponsors (Eg pitch boards, programme adverts, smaller shirt sponsors)
Programme sales
Food sales
Merchandise sales
Lottery
Game draw
Income from bar
Income from exec boxes
Income from function rooms

I don't have one, and in your case, I don't need one.


Well stop wriggling, then! We can all see you swerved any attempt to explain what else you might possibly have meant. I know you can't, but you could at least have had a stab, it would be funnier. Oh well. We'll have to make do with seeing you get your arrse handed to you on a plate by Smokey and Bullmania, for now.

As I said, your figures do not look good. But I also said as you don't have access to all Bradford's incomings and outgoings, your figures are skewed in favour of the argument you're putting across. It's not denial to say that you are not in possession of all the facts, even though you put yourself and your figures forward as though you do.

Who the hell would want to get married in the crater (or hold their party there)?

For the benefit of Smokey, Bullmania and Ferocious A.....I will list the known income of Bradford in regards to 2013. I appreciate that the income figures will not be complete, but I will return to this little detail later**.
SKY TV cash £600,000
Initial Investment from OK £840,000
Council loan £200,000
1 Years sponsorship from Provident £300,000
6,500 ST (20% kids/10% concessions 50/50 terrace/provident) £1,088,100.
2,297 walk up fans per game x 10 (20% kids/10% concessions 50/50 terrace/provident) £459,955
Second investment from Mr Khan £900,000
Running total to date £3,488,055.

Now, the stuff we don't know for sure.......but using the split in fans I have above, then the average cost for a walk up fan is £20.02 a pop.

I have no idea how much a program, pie, coffee, pint, tea etc costs at the club but I would say it's safe to say that £5 a visit isn't too much to expect....so there's another £439,870 in income there.

The club shop.......again, an exact figure is tough to come by, but let's say that 10% of ST holders purchase £120 worth of gear, 30% £60 of gear and 20% spend £40. Of the walk ups, let's say 10% spend £20....£300,000 or there abouts.

Remember, that's 30% of ST holders not spending a penny in the shop and 80% of casuals/away supporters......but I am being generous here.

Running total, £4,230,000 rounded up.

3 home games to go....I'll be generous and say all ST holders and another 6,891 walk ups, to keep the seasons average attendance....this adds £138,000 in ticket revenue, £132,000 in pie, ale and programme revenue and £94,000 in the shop...although the shop revenue would normally be stacked to the start of the season.

Now, if we take the other unknowns such as venue hire, minor sponsors, corporate revenue et al and call them figure "x" then the approximate turn over of the Bradford bulls in 2013 is £4,600,000 and figure "X"** Combined!

Known and projected income for 2014 is as follows.
SKY TV cash £600,000
ST target 10,000 (same splits as above) £1,674,000
Provident Sponsorship £300,000
Walk up ticket revenue (based on 2,300) £598,598.
Shop Spend (as above)£440,000
Pie and ale spend £799,500
Figure "X"**

Total projected revenue figure for 2014 £4,412,098 and "X"**........

Now, I have allowed for 2,300 walk up fans, as well as a 35% increase in ST sales at this years prices but used the same figures for both years.....

No club has ever increased their average attendances by more than 15% in a year unless they offered heavily discounted tickets....Bradford need to increase theirs by over 35% at full price to generate the same revenue in 2014 as 2013.

As I said earlier, I don't expect Bradford to "not be there" or to fold, but the maths as they stand do not make pretty reading.
If my figures are out 20% for 2013 then they are also out for 2014...the resultant shortfall is still the same.

Good luck to Bradford and their fans for 2014....

Oh, the people who book it as their chosen venue, I should imagine.

It's an 'iconic' crater though.

And the weddings are held in the Coral Stand. Not out on the pitch.

Gutterfax, the income from Sponsorship, Season Tickets, Walk up admissions, Club Merchandise, Matchday catering and drinks is all subject to VAT. You'd therefore need to divide by 1.2 to reduce these accordingly to reflect the net income after stripping out the VAT which doesn't belong to the club.

That’s lovely, Still wrong and still missing plenty, and still speculating, and still utterly useless but lovely all the same. Ill point out the most obvious flaw in your workings. Its one I have pointed out to you before. The £900k investment from Omar Kahn covers this year and next. Not this year. It isn’t a difference in investment between this year and next, it is an investment which covers BOTH this year and next.
That’s just incorrect. There is nothing to say that your predictions are out by the same amount, income amounts can be different between the two years so your guesses can be out by differing amounts. They may even be out in different ways. You may be 50% under for 2013 and 50% over for 2014.