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| Quote ="galliant"Ford was an unknown quantity? So you are saying Wales management team didn't know anything about him
Wales sent plenty of big fellas down his channel in February and he did very well. As for saying Farrells abilities are best suited against Wales, remind me how each got on respectively against Wales this year? And i mentioned BOD because you said pundits were slating Burgess because they were 'anti-league', do you think BOD is anti-league? No, so you were talking rubbish.'"
If you still believe that many national media hacks don't have an anti League bias then read some of the reports from the England v Wales match on Saturday. The usual suspects jumped in to lay the blame of England's defeat at the door of Burgess and Farrell to support their previous preferences for the likes of Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Ford, Cipriani, etc
Whereas Sir Clive Woodward's account that has Farrell as Man of The Match and good plaudits for Burgess too who never let Roberts over the gain line yet crossed the gain line himself on several occasions. He points out that the it was the lack of discipline by the Union experienced players that gave away too many penalties (not by the midfield axsis) and that it was only after Burgess was substituted by Ford that our lead and otherwise sound defense went to pieces and Roberts became a threat with the greatly experienced Barritt (and Watson) jumping out of the line that let in Wales for a try. Making similar comments are the well respected commentators like Dallaglio, McGeechan and Jonathan Davies.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"If you still believe that many national media hacks don't have an anti League bias then read some of the reports from the England v Wales match on Saturday. The usual suspects jumped in to lay the blame of England's defeat at the door of Burgess and Farrell to support their previous preferences for the likes of Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Ford, Cipriani, etc
Whereas Sir Clive Woodward's account that has Farrell as Man of The Match and good plaudits for Burgess too who never let Roberts over the gain line yet crossed the gain line himself on several occasions. He points out that the it was the lack of discipline by the Union experienced players that gave away too many penalties (not by the midfield axsis) and that it was only after Burgess was substituted by Ford that our lead and otherwise sound defense went to pieces and Roberts became a threat with the greatly experienced Barritt (and Watson) jumping out of the line that let in Wales for a try. Making similar comments are the well respected commentators like Dallaglio, McGeechan and Jonathan Davies.'" o
So if it's an anti-league bias how come they are, as you say, in favour of Ford?
Keep digging
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| Quote ="The Changing Man".....because 22 teams in the top 24 from north of Coventry isn't a national sport.....it's a northern hobby and it gets treated as such by the national press!'"
A northern hobby?
Does anyone seriously believe that if pro rugby league was concentrated in the South of England, rather than the North, people would be talking about the 'M4 corridor' or a 'southern hobby'?
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| Quote ="moto748"A northern hobby?'"
24 Top Tier Rugby League teams, 1 in France, 1 in London and 22 in the North. This isn't an "if" scenario....or even a "what if" suggestion, it is a cold hard fact......22 of the top 24 sides are located between Sheffield in the south to Workington in the north and Widnes in the west to Hull in the East.......sorry buddy but that aint the midlands, it ain't the south, it ain't the west country and it ain't scotland or wales either...it's the North!
Wakefield - Salford - Hull FC - Hull Kingston Rovers - Widnes - Huddersfield - Leeds - Wigan - Warrington - St Helens - Castleford - Oldham - Bradford - Leigh - Halifax - Sheffield - Featherstone - Dewsbury - Batley - Whitehaven - Workington - Keighley or Swinton.....all of these towns and cities are Northern Town and Cities.
Quote ="moto748"Does anyone seriously believe that if pro rugby league was concentrated in the South of England, rather than the North, people would be talking about the 'M4 corridor' or a 'southern hobby'?
'"
Find me a professional sport that's top 24 sides are confined to the south or M4 Corridor and I'll let you know!
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| Quote ="moto748"A northern hobby?'"
22 of the top 23 teams in England are inside that red area
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| Quote ="The Changing Man"Post 1 in this thread:
The OP wanted to belittle Union because in their opinion, the 'heritage' blight that makes International Rugby League a laughing stock is replicated in Rugby Union. It isn't....the OP posted "roughly assembled' statistics that were then blown out of the water with accurate ones, including the number of heritage players by % at the last RLWC compared to this union one.....but it is a deeper issue than that.
we shouldn't concern ourselves with the RWC 2015......It has little if anything to do with us, but yet this forum has seen this thread and the Sam Burgess one highlight the insane insecurity that is rife amongst certain RL fans. Who cares that Ireland v Romania gets a bigger crowd than the RLWC 2013 semi-final double header....it's a different sport FFS! Who cares if the Japan side that defeated South Africa had a whole 6 players born outside Japan in their match day 23...we have Ireland RL with not one Irishman...nada, nil, zilch......so we blame Union to make ourselves feel better. It's pathetic.'"
Nope. The OP said we should not be so down on our own international game because of where players are from despite being selected for other nations because it also happens in the other code. Now I don't actually think that that is a big reason for why our international game isn't as good as it could be, it makes no difference to me. If a player's grandparents are from a country then they have every right to play for that country.
But at least his post was about our international game in subject on the whole (he just used the other code as an example to go with his argument). But it also wasn't meant so that what could have been a decent thread should descend into a ing stupid thread. A number of posters in this thread seem to want to think the OP was about Union so they could all talk about Union as much as they could.
I used a comparison to women's cricket in one of my posts but there hasn't been a derailment of the thread about women's cricket has there?
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| Quote ="BuckleyStreetWire"I used a comparison to women's cricket in one of my posts but there hasn't been a derailment of the thread about women's cricket has there?'"
Not that I am aware, but then again I have no doubt they have less heritage players than league too.
Edit: Just checked....8 sides all genuine locals playing for their countries. No attempt to fill Irish or scots teams with 2nd grade Anzac's and English to "make it bigger".
Edit Edit: there were countless posts after the op from people wishing to compare the two codes so I'll take it you'llcomplain to them as well?
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| Quote ="The Changing Man"24 Top Tier Rugby League teams, 1 in France, 1 in London and 22 in the North. This isn't an "if" scenario....or even a "what if" suggestion, it is a cold hard fact
'"
France also have Elite 1. Are they really that much worse than Hunslet and Doncaster?
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| Quote ="The Changing Man"Not that I am aware, but then again I have no doubt they have less heritage players than league too.
Edit: Just checked....8 sides all genuine locals playing for their countries. No attempt to fill Irish or scots teams with 2nd grade Anzac's and English to "make it bigger".
Edit Edit: there were countless posts after the op from people wishing to compare the two codes so I'll take it you'llcomplain to them as well?'"
If I had time I'd possibly think of bothering.
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| Quote ="galliant"o
So if it's an anti-league bias how come they are, as you say, in favour of Ford?
Keep digging
'"
They are only in favour of Ford because Cipriani wasn't in the squad so the choice at fly half has to be between 2 Players who learnt their rugby in League. Ford only got his chance when Farrell was out injured. He took it well and played some fine rugby and I like him a lot.
But getting back to the point. Farrell has regained his fitness and form while Ford has lost a bit of sharpness, hence the selection of Farrell which you didn't understand. His Man of the Match performance justified his selection as did Burgess who did the job he was asked to do and his substitution was one of the reasons England lost. Yet some of the hacks were putting the blame on these selections rather than on the poor performances of the "experienced" Union.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"They are only in favour of Ford because Cipriani wasn't in the squad so the choice at fly half has to be between 2 Players who learnt their rugby in League. Ford only got his chance when Farrell was out injured. He took it well and played some fine rugby and I like him a lot.
But getting back to the point. Farrell has regained his fitness and form while Ford has lost a bit of sharpness, hence the selection of Farrell which you didn't understand. His Man of the Match performance justified his selection as did Burgess who did the job he was asked to do and his substitution was one of the reasons England lost. Yet some of the hacks were putting the blame on these selections rather than on the poor performances of the "experienced" Union.'"
The 2 players who got it most in the press were Robshaw and Barritt who are part of the 'experienced Union', which blows your paranoid theory out of the water. I've seen most of the England team get a slagging in the press but you are saying because Farrell and Burgess have been included along with the rest of the team it must be because they have a RL connection
Keep digging
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| Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"France also have Elite 1. Are they really that much worse than Hunslet and Doncaster?'"
1.Toulouse spent 2 years in the English 2nd tier ending in them being relegated.
2.Toulouse have since won 2 of 3 French Elite 1 Titles.
3.Hunslet and Doncaster aren't in the Championship. They've been replaced by Oldham and A.A.NOTHER to be decided at the weekend!
But if you like....
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| Quote ="BuckleyStreetWire"If I had time I'd possibly think of bothering.'"
I didn't drift this thread and nor did I make it about the RWC. It's a sad reflection on the standard of posters here that debate is dead and accusations are the new currency. You claimed I'd ruined the thread, the Printer and loiner claimed I'd made it about the RWC 2015 and that's all people want to hear......because they can't handle certain facts. ....here's a recap for you.
PAGE 1
Quote ="Madderzahatter"International RL is a joke, mainly because the RLIF is a joke. That and the fact the NRL don't give a toss either. The RLWC left zero legacy on the game. The RUWC will p!ss all over the RLWC in terms of revenue, crowd figures etc...'"
PAGE 2
Quote ="moto748"Everything but tries and entertainment value, in fact.'"
Quote ="reffy"England made 77 tackles in their World Cup game against Fiji . James Roby made 62 tackles in the Saints v Wigan game.'"
Quote ="moto748"I just watched the highlights (JAPAN GAME). But the simple fact is that games like the Japan match are very much the exception to the rule in international RU.'"
Quote ="Ferdy"I obviously prefer watching rugby league, but I do enjoy watching RU as well, and personally cannot get my head round why people in league hate it so much, unless they are just envious of the coverage and exposure it gets. I also think RU is improving as a spectacle and the more RL influence of the offload and skills is assisting this. If anyone watches the Southern Hemisphere league that is very exciting to watch.
In Union the internationals are given more qudos over the league with clubs missing their star players while the 6 nations is on.
Also there is more quality at international level. Can u imagine a 6 nation tournament in league. There would be hissy fits about players playing in it and it would not be a competition at all.'"
Quote ="meast"i doubt any RL fan would even try and deny that off the field RU is light years ahead of RL
on the field it's the other way round, imagine how popular "rugby" could be with union's money, marketing and influences, and league been played on the pitch?'"
Quote ="wire-quin"What an amazing start to the RU world cup, they really do put on a great event.'"
I HAD YET TO POST IN THIS THREAD AND ALREADY PEOPLE ARE COMPARING BOTH GAMES ON AND OFF THE PARK....
PAGE 3
Quote ="kobashi"When I have watched union world cup in the past I have found the smaller nations actually take risks and kick less.
It's when then the knock out stages begin where it becomes absolute drivel. Teams play extremely safe and you just see teams kicking for goals and playing for penalties constantly.
The rules allow teams to be negative and win games.
Also I dunno why some fans have a problem with league fans not watching rugby union. I generally don't enjoy watching rugby union. It's nothing to do with union being a bigger spectacle. I just don't particularly like the sport.'"
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"In Union only solo tackles are recorded as once joined by others it becomes a maul or ruck. In league 2nd 3rd and 4th floppers are awarded as a tackle. Forwards in Union have to work hard to contest possession in tackles, mauls, rucks, line outs and in real scrums. So your comparison is irrelevant as a comparison.'"
Quote ="JB Down Under"Problem is it is like watching a poor amateur game of league most of the time with all the stopping and starting, kicking in to touch, penalties and general lack of ball in play. Still each to their own. In league the domestic competitions have always taken precedent since its inception, just the way it has been and is likely to stay.'"
SO HALF WAY THROUGH PAGE 3, WITH PLENTY OF COMPARING GOING ON AND I ADDRES THE ORIGINAL POSTERS CLAIMS:
Quote ="The Changing Man"Maybe you should stop obsessing about Union and you should definitely hold back on the straight comparisons......
660 players in 20 squads at RUWC 2015 of which I can find 71 playing for countries other than that of their Birth. 11%........that's a lot.
322 players in 14 squads at RLWC 2013 of which I could find 159 playing for countries other than that of their birth. That's 49%....that's a Joke...even more so when you consider those 159 were split between 9 sides at over 17 per 23 man squad as an average!'"
AND THEN IT BEGINS:
Quote ="ThePrinter"The biggest joke is that you spent your time noting the birthplace of nearly 1,000 players to try prove a point on a website.'"
Quote ="loiner81"Another thread completely derailed by the clearly unwell Gutterfax and his multiple accounts.
Didn't take long at all for this thread about international RL to become a thread about the RUWC.
Is it any wonder that hardly anyone visits this forum anymore? The mods clearly don't spend any time here and I bet ad revenue's at an all time low.
Think i'll go check Twitter out for a bit before work. This place is dead.'"
ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO ACCEPT YOU WERE WRONG?
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| Quote ="The Changing Man"1.Toulouse spent 2 years in the English 2nd tier ending in them being relegated.
2.Toulouse have since won 2 of 3 French Elite 1 Titles.
3.Hunslet and Doncaster aren't in the Championship. They've been replaced by Oldham and A.A.NOTHER to be decided at the weekend!
But if you like....
'"
1. The team Toulouse could put out in the championship had to cost less than the one they put in the elite.
2. That doesnt even address the problems that face a part time side having to travel to england every other week,
3. That isnt where Toulouse is on a Map, or the size of Catalonia. So what is that to represent?
4. You are undermining your own argument, why choose 22 of 23? The situation is as it is, we gain no more by overstating than understating it.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"1. The team Toulouse could put out in the championship had to cost less than the one they put in the elite.
2. That doesnt even address the problems that face a part time side having to travel to england every other week,
3. That isnt where Toulouse is on a Map, or the size of Catalonia. So what is that to represent?
4. You are undermining your own argument, why choose 22 of 23? The situation is as it is, we gain no more by overstating than understating it.'"
1. So what. The claim was Toulouse were as good as the 2 relegated champ side and I simply pointed out their 3rd tier record in England.
2. They were in it...that's all I said.
3. That are on the map covers the region where the elite 1 clubs are based from Avignon to Villeneuve in the West.....it was elite 1 that I was tasked with...and toulouse are covered by that red zone...it's south east of Villeneuve.
4. 22 from 23 originally saved me the bother of a single dot on a map of france...I really didn't think anyone would attempt to bring elite 1 up!
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| Quote ="galliant"The 2 players who got it most in the press were Robshaw and Barritt who are part of the 'experienced Union', which blows your paranoid theory out of the water. I've seen most of the England team get a slagging in the press but you are saying because Farrell and Burgess have been included along with the rest of the team it must be because they have a RL connection
Keep digging
'"
You should try broadening your reading before you comment. Did you read Paul Hayward's stiff in the Telegraph? Or listen to Carling's comments.
You were questioning the selection of Farrell over Ford! Best try reading and less dodging
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| Quote ="galliant"The 2 players who got it most in the press were Robshaw and Barritt who are part of the 'experienced Union', which blows your paranoid theory out of the water. I've seen most of the England team get a slagging in the press but you are saying because Farrell and Burgess have been included along with the rest of the team it must be because they have a RL connection
Keep digging
'"
[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11893385/England-vs-Wales-Huge-Sam-Burgess-gamble-played-to-Wales-strengths-at-Twickenham.htmlA whole article from the Telegraph as to why it was the selection of Sam Burgess that was England's downfall[/url
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| Quote ="The Changing Man"I didn't drift this thread and nor did I make it about the RWC. It's a sad reflection on the standard of posters here that debate is dead and accusations are the new currency. You claimed I'd ruined the thread, the Printer and loiner claimed I'd made it about the RWC 2015 and that's all people want to hear......because they can't handle certain facts. ....here's a recap for you.
PAGE 1
PAGE 2
I HAD YET TO POST IN THIS THREAD AND ALREADY PEOPLE ARE COMPARING BOTH GAMES ON AND OFF THE PARK....
PAGE 3
SO HALF WAY THROUGH PAGE 3, WITH PLENTY OF COMPARING GOING ON AND I ADDRES THE ORIGINAL POSTERS CLAIMS:
AND THEN IT BEGINS:
ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO ACCEPT YOU WERE WRONG?'"
What are you going on about? I wasn't wrong because i know what i thought the OP was talking about and a few of us have actually tried to say that the OP has actually got it wrong as to say that our international game suffers because of who plays for whom and where they're really from. There are far greater problems than that. A few of us have tried to ignore the inane ramblings about Union and tried to concentrate on our sport. My point about "why are so many posts about Union in this thread" were aimed at posters just using this as a RUWC comments thread. It wasn't about you, the only time i mentioned you was in telling Him to ignore you as you cannot tell the difference between "we cannot copy what Union do" and "we could learn from what they do" which are two different things and you tried to tell Him who made the point and i fully understood, that they are the same thing.
Jesus, talk about trying to pick an argument over nothing. And grow up will you; "man enough to admit you're wrong"; we're adults here trying to have grown up conversations.
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| The International Game, as applicable to Rugby League, is now a joke. It has no relevance to the major teams (my club , my club, ad infinitum), and offers little or no help to develop , promote or foster the game.
RL HAD a lead but just didn't have the gonads or vision to take it to the next level.
If it want's to meaningful, regular COMPETITIVE international games again it will not be a short term solution but will take generations even if started now, which is unlikely under the current regimes.
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| Quote ="Leaguefan"The International Game, as applicable to Rugby League, is now a joke. It has no relevance to the major teams (my club , my club, ad infinitum), and offers little or no help to develop , promote or foster the game.
RL HAD a lead but just didn't have the gonads or vision to take it to the next level.
If it want's to meaningful, regular COMPETITIVE international games again it will not be a short term solution but will take generations even if started now, which is unlikely under the current regimes.'"
You're a ray of sunshine aren't you.
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| Quote ="The Changing Man"1. So what. The claim was Toulouse were as good as the 2 relegated champ side and I simply pointed out their 3rd tier record in England.
2. They were in it...that's all I said.
3. That are on the map covers the region where the elite 1 clubs are based from Avignon to Villeneuve in the West.....it was elite 1 that I was tasked with...and toulouse are covered by that red zone...it's south east of Villeneuve.
4. 22 from 23 originally saved me the bother of a single dot on a map of france...I really didn't think anyone would attempt to bring elite 1 up!'"
1.They don't have a 3rd tier record in England. They have a 2nd tier one but as I said, put together on less than their elite side. Their elite side was better than their Championship side.
2.no you made a flawed argument highlighting their Championship performances as reflective of their elite quality.
3. So it doesn't cover Catalonia. Odd choice.
4. And that makes it a misleading overstatement. Which is pointless. There is no benefit to us overstating the problem and no use in us understating it. The game is strong in the north of englanf and south of France. Everywhere else it struggles and has no plan to overcome those struggles or a system where that can be done.
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| Quote ="LifeLongHKRFan"You're a ray of sunshine aren't you.'"
YES!!!
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| Quote ="galliant"The 2 players who got it most in the press were Robshaw and Barritt who are part of the 'experienced Union', which blows your paranoid theory out of the water. I've seen most of the England team get a slagging in the press but you are saying because Farrell and Burgess have been included along with the rest of the team it must be because they have a RL connection
Keep digging
'"
I think this article from ex Ireland centre Gordon D'arcy is pretty much aimed at blaming Burgess!! [urlhttp://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-burgess-is-blunder-that-could-bury-england-1.2371821[/url
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| Quote ="Taverner"I think this article from ex Ireland centre Gordon D'arcy is pretty much aimed at blaming Burgess!! [urlhttp://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-burgess-is-blunder-that-could-bury-england-1.2371821[/url'"
Actually it's not blaming him at all...it's blaming the speed at which he was promoted to the International side.
Like it or not, playing 12 or 13 in Union is about timing in defense and attack with strong "pairings" being key to success. The AB's Smith and Nonu have well over 50 tests together as did D'arcy and O'Driscoll....picking Burgess there was an error. Not his though.
Sam Burgess an outstanding athlete and Rugby player, but in League he ran straight at people and they ran straight at him......as boring as it may be, Union isn't about that and it was wrong of Lancaster to pick him IMHO.
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| Quote ="Taverner"I think this article from ex Ireland centre Gordon D'arcy is pretty much aimed at blaming Burgess!! [urlhttp://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-burgess-is-blunder-that-could-bury-england-1.2371821[/url'"
As I said, most of the England team have got it in the neck including Burgess, what Juan Cornetto was claiming was it's because the pundits are 'anti-league', unless you are saying that ex-RL players are above criticism then SB will face get criticism as others have done. Both Gordon D'arcy and Brian O'driscoll have said SB is not ready, do you think both of them are anti-league even though they both hail from Ireland? RL just isn't that important enough (especially in Ireland) for them to have a grudge against it. GD explains that it took him 3 years before he understood all the nuances of playing in the centres at test-match level, which explains why he thinks Burgess isn't upto speed yet. Bearing in mind between them D'arcy and O'driscoll have 224 international test caps for Ireland and The Lions playing in the centres, and have won 6 European Cups between them, I (and anybody else who watches RU) would take their opinions about SB playing in the centres over yours and Juan Cornettos any day of the week.
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