And he's certainly getting a bumper return on his investment isn't he. If he had any sense he'd walk away and save himself a lot of money and a lot of heartache.

So knowing the issues financially you're having now, and the fact that Khan is having to shove in more cash again, how can you afford to spend the full salary cap next season - as I recently read?

Hardly a sustainable business/cutting cloth accordingly if that's the case, particularly as you still won't get full Sky money next season either.

Don't know ask every other club except maybe hull, Leeds and Wigan why they're unsustainable?

Its chicken feed to him. Its his Sat afternoon out.

It doesnt seem to worry anyone that maybe the Bulls are on the edge.

Not paying workers tends to suggest something isnt right in the business. Admin mistake - utter cr4p

Not all other clubs are spending more than they earn.

Cas are a great example of a club managing on what they earn and only spend what they earn.

Quote ="Fully"Not all other clubs are spending more than they earn. Cas are a great example of a club managing on what they earn and only spend what they earn.'" Not true, cas directors put money in to cover operating losses. "The club requires significant investment in order to continue and I truly hope the board can secure the necessary financial support in the coming months." Castleford chairman Jack Fulton said in a statement: "I would like to thank Steve for his efforts during his time at the club and wish him well for the future. "For over 20 years I have supported this club financially to a substantial amount with the aim of keeping it going as a Super League club ready for the day when it can support itself. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21504883

Quote ="Fully"Not all other clubs are spending more than they earn. Cas are a great example of a club managing on what they earn and only spend what they earn.'" Not true, cas directors put money in to cover operating losses. "The club requires significant investment in order to continue and I truly hope the board can secure the necessary financial support in the coming months." Castleford chairman Jack Fulton said in a statement: "I would like to thank Steve for his efforts during his time at the club and wish him well for the future. "For over 20 years I have supported this club financially to a substantial amount with the aim of keeping it going as a Super League club ready for the day when it can support itself. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21504883

Yes, but that's NOT A GOOD THING. How stupid are you? You're bragging about how your club is failing while mocking the Bulls for being in a similar position.

Quote ="JB Down Under"Not true, cas directors put money in to cover operating losses. "The club requires significant investment in order to continue and I truly hope the board can secure the necessary financial support in the coming months." Castleford chairman Jack Fulton said in a statement: "I would like to thank Steve for his efforts during his time at the club and wish him well for the future. "For over 20 years I have supported this club financially to a substantial amount with the aim of keeping it going as a Super League club ready for the day when it can support itself. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21504883'" We don't rely on Jack Fulton to spend over and up to the cap. We use Jack Fulton to meet our obligations to local businesses and creditors and keep the business running smoothly. There's a vast difference between that and the other clubs. Plus our losses are substantially lower than other clubs and the SL average of circa £650k. We've also made a profit in the last decade and broken even. If we have a bad season then we require support but if we have a good season CC run and making the play-offs, we tend to break even. We are a club that doesn't spend more than we earn and we pay what we owe.

Quote ="JB Down Under"Not true, cas directors put money in to cover operating losses. "The club requires significant investment in order to continue and I truly hope the board can secure the necessary financial support in the coming months." Castleford chairman Jack Fulton said in a statement: "I would like to thank Steve for his efforts during his time at the club and wish him well for the future. "For over 20 years I have supported this club financially to a substantial amount with the aim of keeping it going as a Super League club ready for the day when it can support itself. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21504883'" We don't rely on Jack Fulton to spend over and up to the cap. We use Jack Fulton to meet our obligations to local businesses and creditors and keep the business running smoothly. There's a vast difference between that and the other clubs. Plus our losses are substantially lower than other clubs and the SL average of circa £650k. We've also made a profit in the last decade and broken even. If we have a bad season then we require support but if we have a good season CC run and making the play-offs, we tend to break even. We are a club that doesn't spend more than we earn and we pay what we owe.

Eh?

If you need Jack's cash[i "to meet our obligations to local businesses and creditors and keep the business running smoothly"[/i and [i"losses are substantially lower than other clubs"[/i then Cas are clearly spending more than they earn.

So you were given 800k........needed to borrow another 200k from the council, then missed a wage payment of another 200k before your owner came back with another 900k.
1.7 Million of outside investment needed to get you to the end of 1 season?

Whilst DH ploughs money into London on a similar scale, he does it because the club can't survive on 2,000 averages.
Bradford have an average of around 8,500 or so this year.......needing another 1.7 million to survive sounds like bad management and a lot of unlearn lessons from previous carnage.

3 more home games, 2 of which will deliver little ticket revenue then the off season with wages still needing to be paid....as I said, there's500k left of the 1.7 million from your owner...who said his total investment would be in the region of 2 million.....it's not looking positive at Bradford at all.

BTW...I take no pleasure in watching another club struggle...I simply call it as I see it, which in this case, is negative. I fail to see how missing a salary payment to staff can be seen as anything else.

Correct but the Bulls dont have that money. Cafes dont make the same money as oil.

When DH leaves the Broncos they are done for

we're already done for with him.



I understand the passion of the Bradford fans defending their club, but London fans are best placed to identify trouble.......Bradford are in big trouble.
They even had a scheme by which you could start paying for your 2014 ST this year...

Spending next years ST money this year is a recipe for more disaster!

But the Bulls will probably still be here.

Nobody said they wouldn't be....I simply pointed out the mechanics of their recent woes using all available figures that have ben published.
I doubt OK will be happy ploughing in another 1.7 million in 2014.....if he can afford to that is.
2013;
8,500 average at say 25 quid per fan (total spend, ticket, beer, food, shop etc) is about 2,750,000. Add in the 600k from SKY and the 300k sponsorship deal and the Bradford Bulls have an income for 2013 of 3.65 million....before the owner puts his hand in his pocket.

He has ploughed basically the salary cap into the club this year.....where the hell has that 3.65 million gone


70 grand a week on running the club, excluding the first team squad....what the f**k

I'd be interested to see the bit where I said the Bulls should aspire to cash flow issues.......really, I would.
...or could it be that the tears got in your eyes when you read this bit....

.......and you misunderstood it?

I suspect it's cash flow that is the issue. The bulls have no cash reserves and unto they can build some they are going to have these struggles.

Again, this is you grabbing at a statistic but not using all the information about it for your argument. Yes, you can start paying for your season ticket early, however the club has already stated that that money is ring fenced for 2014. So the club are clearly aware that spending next year's ST money is a recipe for disaster which is why they're not doing it.

Also, your other figures are all based on income and show no outgoings. So, taxes, wages, rent, marketing and all the other overheads that go into running a modern sports club are not taken into account in your shocked expose of how badly the Bulls are run.

That's got to be one of the funniest posts on here for ages



Bigger trouble ahead methinks - wonder why I get a feeling of deja vu?

Hold your horses there pal.
First up, I posted a series of figures regarding the income of Bradford Bulls as part of an explanation as to why they were in need of further UNSCHEDULED funding from their owner. You accused me of making stuff up!

I responded with links to every set of figures I had used, but instead of you admitting you were wrong, you pointed out that OK has actually already sunk 800k into the club, on top of this 900k. I can't see how this added any weight to your premise that Bradford aren't in the crapper, but I reposted all the financial ins and outs including the scheme by which next years ST could be paid for this year.

Why don't ye revisit all the facts before you reply again?

£180 season tickets x 6,500 = £ 1,1700,000
1/2 Sky Money = £600,000
Sponsors Money = £300,000
2,250 extra fans per game @ £20 = £4,500,00

Before a pint, pie or replica shirt has been purchased, Bradford Bulls have seen a 2013 income of £2,520,000. Let's say that the Pies, Pints and shop takings come in at £10.00 a head per game....so add £850,000 to the kitty so far and you get an income of £3,370,000.

Now, your owner has now ploughed an additional £1,700,000 into the coffers of the club and we have established that after the Council Loan and July Wages are settled, there is £500k left in funds for the rest of the season.

London and Catalan will bring few fans.....£5 a ticket for London. There are Wages to be paid for August (£200,000), September (£200,000) and October (£200,000) before the season ends and some players leave whilst some join, then you start the yearly cycle again November (£200,000), December (£200,000), January (£200,000), and season starting February (£200,000)....so, the income from London, Catalans and Huddersfield games (£100,000 at best) + £500,000 in funds in the bank will be expected to cover 7 months wages (£1,400,000), rent on the ground al the other running costs before a ball is kicked in 2014.

I am not saying Bradford won't be there in 2014......what I am saying is currently, the figures just don't add up......they don't even come close to adding up.

Bradford are assured of £600,000 from SKY next year, as well as £300,000 sponsorship money. They have targeted 10,000 ST holders £1,800,000 and that in turn will produce another £1,300,000 in residual revenue....£4,000,000.

With an income of £3,400,000 this year, they have required another £1,700,000 just to pay the wages.......if they get their 10k ST's next year, they are still coming up £1,100,000 on the running costs of 2013......which I have already shown they will end with a deficit after the Wages to December are paid.

Please...re-read the above maths before you reply.....other than the assumption that a residual spend at a game is £10 a visit including, beer, programmes, pies, replica gear etc it is all based on published fact!

There are some assumptions in there that might alter your calculations slightly. The season ticket number of 6500 may include children, concessions and also the 'half-season' ticket promotion we offered. In reality only the club owners know the full extent of revenue generated by season tickets.
I'm also not 100% sure on how much money we actually get from sponsorship, and how it is distributed over the term of the sponsorship.
The income from away supporters is another assumption that might not be wholly accurate. Not every team brings 2,250 supporters, and they certainly won't all be paying £20 to get in.
The £10 per head for food/drink/merch is another figure open to suggestion - I don't think the reality will be anywhere near that but w/e.
We don't know how much the council loan was for, nor do we know the rate of interest. Or indeed any other borrowings the club may have.
Then you have left out the small matter of VAT, rent, rates, utilities, upkeep of the ground, marketing and everything else that goes into the running of a RL team and indeed any other business.

Ryan Whitcut is quoted as saying that Omar has covered £840k to date, and recently put in another (supposed) £900k which is to be used over this season and next. The split was not revealed, and it may not even be £900k for all we know.

I am hoping that the owners at least have the competence to prepare budgets for several outcomes depending on certain variables (our final league standing in 2013, 2014 season ticket sales, 2014 wage bill etc.).
Omar and his team may not have much experience in running a RL team, but he has several successful businesses now so I have hope that he will at least have some small idea of what he is doing.

If I am 50% out on my calculations, then Bradford will still need to fill a 600k hole in 2014 over and above the 600k loss they will make before February 2014.

The Wages are 200k a month...August through to January is 6 months, so 1.2 million before the season starts......they have 500k in the bank and only the prospect of Huddersfield bringing any away fans.

2014's figures are based on getting 10,000 ST sales....that's a 35% increase at static prices....a MASSIVE ask.....if they only add 20% ( a brilliant result) then they are a further 400k down on projected revenue.

I am not talking about any running costs other than wages here, because we don't have figures on the cost of rent etc, but the reality is, the sums do not add up.

Bradford will have received over 5,000,000 in revenue in 2013 and could quite possibly be 600k short by the end of the year.....next years projections without more cash from your owner do not look healthy...at all!


BTW...I never said away fans brought 2,250....I worked on 6,500 ST's and an average of about 8,750...there will be Bradford casuals in there.

No, your figures don't look healthy. However, the majority of your figures are estimates based on educated guess work and not in possession of all the facts regarding the bulls income. Maybe that's why the figures don't add up?

Fine I am 75% out.....Bradford are still in a £300,000 hole this year and next!
By the way, I estates the turn over of London broncos to within 8% last year and the rest of sl by an average of 15%.......it's more than educated guesswork

Also sky money is paid monthly so we still have 200k of that to come in this year (4 instalments at 50k each).

And I was only 5 numbers away from winning the lottery on Saturday. The fact is you're basing your argument on incomplete data so it's always going to be skewed in favour of the point you're trying to make.