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| Quote ="Dave Lister"Having read this entire thread, I can confirm that SmokeyTA is completely correct in stating what he has. Who can blame him for no longer wishing to engage with such obvious, bitter drivel.'"
...and log out... now log back in... job done.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Top 6 would have been decided about a month before the end of the season. It would have left us with 4 rounds where 8 teams had nothing to play for.'"
Thats the problem, superleague is dumbed down to keep 5th to 8th ticking over, where quantity displaces quality.
Should be top 3 in my opinion, top straight to final 2 v 3 for the other final spot.
It just might mean the 27 games might be more competitive, create a minor trophy play off for 4th to 8th if the RFL are clever enough to convince Sky.
Bring back credibility to league position.
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| Quote ="OFFTHECUFF"No offence but Champions should be the consistent team through the season and who are top.Imagine Liverpool winning champions tag from 5th?'"
How many teams qualify for the CHAMPIONS league?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Top 6 would have been decided about a month before the end of the season. It would have left us with 4 rounds where 8 teams had nothing to play for.'"
Well maybe the teams who aimed for a "top 8 " spot would try a little bit harder. I agree with a top 6 format. REAL reward for aiming for the top (one game from GF or you have to lose 2 in a row to be out).
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| Just a bit of fun working out all the win ratios during the regular season from the eventual grand final winners:
1998 Wigan 91.3% (1st)
1999 St Helens 76.6% (2nd)
2000 St Helens 82.1% (2nd)
2001 Bradford 78.5% (1st)
2002 St Helens 82.1% (1st)
2003 Bradford 78.5%) (1st)
2004 Leeds 85.7% (1st)
2005 Bradford 64.2% (3rd)
2006 St Helens 85.7% (1st)
2007 Leeds 66.6% (2nd)
2008 Leeds 77.7% (2nd)
2009 Leeds 77.7% (1st)
2010 Wigan 81.4% (1st)
2011 Leeds 55.5% (5th)
2012 Leeds 59.2% (5th)
For some perspective - Warrington finished with a 81.4% winning ratio in 2011, and Wigan finished top this year with a ratio of 77.7%
Q/ Did Bradford winning it from 3rd in 2005 cause much uproar?
(edit: thanks judd)
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| RL13 - Edit the 2007 season before you get jumped on it was won by Leeds.
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| It's generally all sour grapes.
I still go to as many league games as I can because I enjoy watching rugby league. It's sport it's entertainment and I like to go. I know quite well one of the Leeds players who assures me that they don't aim to be poor at the start of the year and they want to win every game, they do aim to peak in September and as a result of training might be a bit off the mark but they do NOT sit around and think we will aim for 5th as its easy. People know the rules and Leeds are the rightful champions.
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| Quote ="RL13"Q/ Did Bradford winning it from 3rd in 2005 cause much uproar?'"
No because it was Saints and Leeds who finished above them not Wigan
Both sides took it on the chin, nuckled down and dominated the subsequent years (well ignoring 2006 in Leeds' case)
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| Quote ="mikej"Well maybe the teams who aimed for a "top 8 " spot would try a little bit harder. I agree with a top 6 format. REAL reward for aiming for the top (one game from GF or you have to lose 2 in a row to be out).'"
I agree with going back to this.
Still,Leeds could finish 5th again in that system and if they perform like they did in the last 2 playoff series, just as easily walk away with the crown.
Leeds know what it takes to get through the playoffs and win a grand final.Its up to the other teams to raise to that level when it Matters also.Which they have been unable to do the last 2 years.
No amount of tweaking with the system will change this fact.
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| Quote ="RL13"Just a bit of fun working out all the win ratios during the regular season from the eventual grand final winners:
1998 Wigan 91.3% (1st)
1999 St Helens 76.6% (2nd)
2000 St Helens 82.1% (2nd)
2001 Bradford 78.5% (1st)
2002 St Helens 82.1% (1st)
2003 Bradford 78.5%) (1st)
2004 Leeds 85.7% (1st)
2005 Bradford 64.2% (3rd)
2006 St Helens 85.7% (1st)
2007 Leeds 66.6% (2nd)
2008 Leeds 77.7% (2nd)
2009 Leeds 77.7% (1st)
2010 Wigan 81.4% (1st)
2011 Leeds 55.5% (5th)
2012 Leeds 59.2% (5th)
For some perspective - Warrington finished with a 81.4% winning ratio in 2011, and Wigan finished top this year with a ratio of 77.7%
Q/ Did Bradford winning it from 3rd in 2005 cause much uproar?
(edit: thanks judd)'"
Just to add some context, here's the NRL
1998 Brisbane 75% (1st)
1999 Melbourne 67% (3rd)
2000 Brisbane 69% (1st)
2001 Newcastle 62% (3rd)
2002 Sydney 63% (4th)
2003 Penrith 75% (1st)
2004 Canterbury 79% (2nd)
2005 Wests 58% (4th)
2006 Brisbane 58% (3rd)
2007 Melbourne 88% (1st) - stripped of title
2008 Manly 71% (2nd)
2009 Melbourne 58% (4th) - stripped of title
2010 St George 71% (1st)
2011 Manly 75% (2nd)
2012 Melbourne 71% (2nd)
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| Thanks for that HIM. Interesting to compare.
Whilst we're on the subject (sort of) - is any one of age to know why they dispensed with the play off system in 1974-75? What is merely down the creation of two divisions, bearing in mind that division one still had 16 teams? Was the championship final as it was then, no longer the great pinnacle of the season?
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| Quote ="Him"Just to add some context, here's the NRL
1998 Brisbane 75% (1st)
1999 Melbourne 67% (3rd)
2000 Brisbane 69% (1st)
2001 Newcastle 62% (3rd)
2002 Sydney 63% (4th)
2003 Penrith 75% (1st)
2004 Canterbury 79% (2nd)
2005 Wests 58% (4th)
2006 Brisbane 58% (3rd)
2007 Melbourne 88% (1st) - stripped of title
2008 Manly 71% (2nd)
2009 Melbourne 58% (4th) - stripped of title
2010 St George 71% (1st)
2011 Manly 75% (2nd)
2012 Melbourne 71% (2nd)'"
The NRL is far more competitive though. A team that finishes 5th in the NRL (not that anyone has won it from 5th) has had a better season than a team who finishes 5th in SL. I don't think anybody--not even Leeds themselves--would claim Leeds had a good domestic season.
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"...and log out... now log back in... job done.
'"
Don't pretend im someone else, its pretty easy for the mods to check and prove you again to be a bit of a moron.
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"The NRL is far more competitive though. A team that finishes 5th in the NRL (not that anyone has won it from 5th) has had a better season than a team who finishes 5th in SL. I don't think anybody--not even Leeds themselves--would claim Leeds had a good domestic season.'"
Yeah, a team from 5th in the NRL can call themselves champions. The NRL is more competitive isn’t it, anyone can beat anyone on any given day. Where a team from 4th or 5th or even 8th can get in the play-offs and get to the Grand Final, and then who knows, anyone can beat anyone, teams qualify for the play-offs but need to win the play-offs to be champions
Not like SL, which isn’t competitive, where only the top teams win and it is disgusting that a team from 4th or 5th, god forbid 8th, get to a Grand Final, it makes the whole season pointless. Why bother with the rest of the season if you only need to win the play-offs to be champions.
after all [iA team that finishes 5th in the NRL (not that anyone has won it from 5th) has had a better season than a team who finishes 5th in SL[/i
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| Quote ="RL13"Just a bit of fun working out all the win ratios during the regular season from the eventual grand final winners:
1998 Wigan 91.3% (1st)
1999 St Helens 76.6% (2nd)
2000 St Helens 82.1% (2nd)
2001 Bradford 78.5% (1st)
2002 St Helens 82.1% (1st)
2003 Bradford 78.5%) (1st)
2004 Leeds 85.7% (1st)
2005 Bradford 64.2% (3rd)
2006 St Helens 85.7% (1st)
2007 Leeds 66.6% (2nd)
2008 Leeds 77.7% (2nd)
2009 Leeds 77.7% (1st)
2010 Wigan 81.4% (1st)
2011 Leeds 55.5% (5th)
2012 Leeds 59.2% (5th)
For some perspective - Warrington finished with a 81.4% winning ratio in 2011, and Wigan finished top this year with a ratio of 77.7%
Q/ Did Bradford winning it from 3rd in 2005 cause much uproar?
(edit: thanks judd)'"
To add some context here, we have only had the top 8 play off's since 2008 ? , previously it had been top 6 and prior to that top 5.
There are 2 things that are becoming more evident :
1. If you qualify for the 8, you have a chance to win the top prize
2. Leeds are an excelleny play off/ cup team.
The one sure thing is that the top teams realise that they need a full strength, fit squad at the business end of the season and if this means
sacrificing a few points earlier in the season so be it.
Does this detract from the weekly rounds, probably ?
Is iit worth it to have the spectacle of the Grand Final, yes.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"To add some context here, we have only had the top 8 play off's since 2008 ? , previously it had been top 6 and prior to that top 5.
There are 2 things that are becoming more evident :
1. If you qualify for the 8, you have a chance to win the top prize
2. Leeds are an excelleny play off/ cup team.
The one sure thing is that the top teams realise that they need a full strength, fit squad at the business end of the season and if this means
sacrificing a few points earlier in the season so be it.
Does this detract from the weekly rounds, probably ?
Is iit worth it to have the spectacle of the Grand Final, yes.'"
Leeds peaking during the play-offs is to the detriment of their league campaign, but the benefit of their performance in the play offs, Wigan peaking during the regular season meant they won more regular season games, but didn’t play that well in the play-offs.
Both those two clubs made a choice, Leeds won.
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"The NRL is far more competitive though. A team that finishes 5th in the NRL (not that anyone has won it from 5th) has had a better season than a team who finishes 5th in SL. I don't think anybody--not even Leeds themselves--would claim Leeds had a good domestic season.'"
The difference in quality between the respective leagues is irrelevant. The argument put forward is that a team winning from low in the playoffs with a "low" percentage of wins "ruins" the regular season. That has categorically not been the case in the NRL where teams have won the Grand Final from lower in the league more often than in SL and with teams with lower win % than Leeds.
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| What part of this discussion is confusing some of the idiots on here?
Which team or How a team wins the GF and becomes Champions is not an issue to anyone ..... 14 teams looked at the rules, and Leeds played the overall game better than anyone else, and so are rightly hailed as Champions. The disturbing fact of the matter is teams (not just Leeds) are tailoring their season around qualifying for, and being at their peak for, the playoffs. But it doesn't say on my season ticket "Warning: You will be charged full price for ALL games, regardless of whether your team put any effort into the game or not."
So, if the team are only going to try in 20 of the 27 games, how about instead of putting 100% of my financial effort into every game by buying a season ticket for £240+, I (and many others) will choose to put 70% financial effort into paying to watch? ..... Is that OK? If league games aren't that important to clubs (and some very clearly aren't) then why should I pay to watch them all? And it's not like the clubs need the money, is it? The game is obviously swimming in excess cash!!!
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| Quote ="Dougy"I'm a season ticket holder at a top 4 side. Encourage me to buy a season ticket next season to watch 13 friendlies?
I know my team will make the top 8 before we start so whats the point in me buying one? should i just wait for September to start going like the Leeds club do????'"
Please dont buy one then and encourage a few thousand more to do likewise, them maybe another team can take your teams place as revenue plummets.
Then lets hope if it is my team I do not become as smug as you.
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| Quote ="BogBrushHead"What part of this discussion is confusing some of the idiots on here?
Which team or How a team wins the GF and becomes Champions is not an issue to anyone ..... 14 teams looked at the rules, and Leeds played the overall game better than anyone else, and so are rightly hailed as Champions. The disturbing fact of the matter is teams (not just Leeds) are tailoring their season around qualifying for, and being at their peak for, the playoffs. But it doesn't say on my season ticket "Warning: You will be charged full price for ALL games, regardless of whether your team put any effort into the game or not."
So, if the team are only going to try in 20 of the 27 games, how about instead of putting 100% of my financial effort into every game by buying a season ticket for £240+, I (and many others) will choose to put 70% financial effort into paying to watch? ..... Is that OK? If league games aren't that important to clubs (and some very clearly aren't) then why should I pay to watch them all? And it's not like the clubs need the money, is it? The game is obviously swimming in excess cash!!!'"
You can do what you want, it's a free country. It's a little pathetic though. There is some sort of bizarre attitude going around that for some reason it's a disgrace if a club doesn't win every single game. As if clubs having poor games somehow entitles the supporters to their money back. Well rugby league fans need to snap out of it because it's utterly ridiculous.
For a start there aren't 27 games in a season, Leeds played 37 this season and won 25 of them (a win ratio of 68% by the way). Is winning 2/3rds of games unacceptable? If so I'd suggest you're not going to enjoy any kind of competitive sport.
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| Don't act daft - Obviously it's no disgrace if a team doesn't win every game ... but it's ridiculous that teams go into league games with no intention of trying to win them.... and that is what is happening.
To accommodate an 'end of season finale' consisting of 9 games, two of which the loser gets a second chance at, the RFL/Sky/ Cameron (as he seems to get the blame for everything even if he wasn't PM when it started) have made a nonsense of probably 50+ league games, for many of which the tickets have been pre-sold by way of season tickets. I pay to watch a competitive game of rugby, not 13 a side WWF!
So instead of giving the club all the money upfront, I'll keep it in my pocket and, when I feel like giving a toss, I'll put effort into paying to watch! I'm not happy with whats happening, and that's my choice .... and if you choose otherwise, that's your choice.
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| Quote ="BogBrushHead"Don't act daft - Obviously it's no disgrace if a team doesn't win every game ... but it's ridiculous that teams go into league games with no intention of trying to win them.... and that is what is happening.
To accommodate an 'end of season finale' consisting of 9 games, two of which the loser gets a second chance at, the RFL/Sky/ Cameron (as he seems to get the blame for everything even if he wasn't PM when it started) have made a nonsense of probably 50+ league games, for many of which the tickets have been pre-sold by way of season tickets. I pay to watch a competitive game of rugby, not 13 a side WWF!
So instead of giving the club all the money upfront, I'll keep it in my pocket and, when I feel like giving a toss, I'll put effort into paying to watch! I'm not happy with whats happening, and that's my choice .... and if you choose otherwise, that's your choice.'"
I believe I only saw one game that a team went into without a complete intention to win - Warrington away to London the week before the CC final. Changes to the process to decide the season champions wouldn't have affected what they did in that game.
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| Quote ="BogBrushHead"Don't act daft - Obviously it's no disgrace if a team doesn't win every game ... but it's ridiculous that teams go into league games with no intention of trying to win them.... and that is what is happening.
To accommodate an 'end of season finale' consisting of 9 games, two of which the loser gets a second chance at, the RFL/Sky/ Cameron (as he seems to get the blame for everything even if he wasn't PM when it started) have made a nonsense of probably 50+ league games, for many of which the tickets have been pre-sold by way of season tickets. I pay to watch a competitive game of rugby, not 13 a side WWF!
So instead of giving the club all the money upfront, I'll keep it in my pocket and, when I feel like giving a toss, I'll put effort into paying to watch! I'm not happy with whats happening, and that's my choice .... and if you choose otherwise, that's your choice.'"
You are missing something here.
If you buy a season ticket at somewhere around £200 and go to every game you would save about £60 a season, but as fans, we are now treated to a play off and Grand final.
This system does allow the shrewd coaches the opportunity to rest key players or, not force someone to play with an injury and it still gives us a "champion" team.
Ok, it's not what many of us grew up with and Leeds winning from 5th does make folk ask questions but, in fairness, they beat all of the top teams (apart from Saints) along the way.
So they were certainly the best team when it mattered and believe me, I am a long, long way from being a Rhino's fan.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"You are missing something here.
If you buy a season ticket at somewhere around £200 and go to every game you would save about £60 a season, but as fans, we are now treated to a play off and Grand final.
This system does allow the shrewd coaches the opportunity to rest key players or, not force someone to play with an injury and it still gives us a "champion" team.
Ok, it's not what many of us grew up with and Leeds winning from 5th does make folk ask questions but, in fairness, they beat all of the top teams (apart from Saints) along the way.
So they were certainly the best team when it mattered and believe me, I am a long, long way from being a Rhino's fan.'"
Leeds also, unlike Wire and Wigan, did not particularly take to resting players during the course of the season. They might have liked to mind you - but couldn't afford to.
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| It all depends on the future.
If, over the next 5 or 6 years normal service is resumed and the champions are from the top 2 again, this whole thing about the playoffs and regular seasons will die down, and in 10 or 15 years the current leeds team will be immortalised for winning back to back titles from 5th.
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