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| As frustrating this is, at the end of the day no rules are broken and who knows maybe it will eventually lead to contested scrums once everybody wises up to it. Unless the mighty at the RFL make up a rule just to stop teams doing it.
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| Quote ="Him"To suggest Hull KR were trying to cheat by breaking early is ridiculous. Teams are used to the scrum being quick and the ball out almost immediately it's put in so ALL teams automatically break from the scrum almost immediately.
Hull KR were caught out that's all.
As for the tactic of keeping the ball in the scrum, there's nothing wrong with it. Teams need to adapt and push in the scrum to combat it.
I think it's great, I think we need more pushing in the scrum and could do with the occasional scrum being won against the head. Bring it back as an additional tactic teams can use if they want to.'"
Deliberately not playing to the rules is, by definition, cheating. And you're right most teams do it - doesn't make it right.
There is little creative play from scrubs BECAUSE teams don't play to the rules and bind.
The rolling of the ball back, instead of playing it with the foot the PTB is equally irksome. Some players seem to be exempt from playing to the rules.
BTW, I do agree that Wigan get away with illegally slowing the PTB; that's partly because they are so good with technique on most occasions and partly because they are Wigan.
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| It's illegal for the loose forward to old it in, but not the second row. Seems inconsistent to me. But with the rules as they are there just has to be someone responsible on the defending team telling the scrum when to break, schoolboy stuff really
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| Quote ="Hopie"...there just has to be someone responsible on the defending team telling the scrum when to break, schoolboy stuff really'"
There is - the ref calls "out" when the ball is out.
Schoolboy stuff indeed.
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| I do wonder if Wigan themselves are prepared for this tactic. (And Leeds too as they have also been seen using it)
If the ball isn't live when it's being held in the scrum, what's the stop the ball staying at the feet of the second row for ages to time waste?
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| Quote ="hindle xiii"I do wonder if Wigan themselves are prepared for this tactic. (And Leeds too as they have also been seen using it)
If the ball isn't live when it's being held in the scrum, what's the stop the ball staying at the feet of the second row for ages to time waste?'"
Defenders shoving them off the ball and taking it.
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I'm suprised it isn't more common as IMO it is a clever tactic especially to help clear your line. All the defence need to do is not move up until the ref shouts the ball is clear.
It's certainly not cheating as Mr Netherton states in his tweet from last night
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=573273&tsmp=1408105055
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I'm suprised it isn't more common as IMO it is a clever tactic especially to help clear your line. All the defence need to do is not move up until the ref shouts the ball is clear.
It's certainly not cheating as Mr Netherton states in his tweet from last night
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=573273&tsmp=1408105055
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| I like it when a team exploits the rules and does something new. Adds an extra dimension to the game.
Much better than going through the motions at the scrum and everyone, including the fans, accepting that every scrum breakdown will be virutally the same.
In relation to scrums in general, I think teams should be encouranged to do something different - pushing, trapping, kicking after the breakdown, running through the broken scrum. Much better than the safe "a few passes to the left and a tackle".
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| Holding the ball in at the scrum is a smart tactic and we should never have stopped the loose-forward from being allowed to do it.
If the opposition can be kept 'honest' (i.e. bound-in in the forwards and onside in the backs), we may see more expansive play from the scrum. It would give the scrum a 'modern purpose'. (I'm not one of those who wishes to return to the mess we used to have with so-called 'competitive' scrums and which rugby union are now finding a royal pain in the backside).
One of the criticisms I hear levelled at RL is that it can sometimes be a bit one-dimensional. Having handovers instead of scrums would make it even more so. The scrum having a modern purpose helps to counter this.
I'd be tempted to ramp up the potential benefit of chancing your arm from a scrum a bit further by having a think about other ways of creating space for the backs. For example, does a scrum pack have to consist of only six players?
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| It's a legitimate tactic but if refs are going to penalise it they should penalise it consistently.
That aside, once again Silverwood showed why he shouldn't be given the very big games. The holding down was horrendous at times. Eventually he'd tell them to move, a couple of seconds later they'd do so and time and again no penalties were forthcoming. Awful. Thaler or, at a push, Bentham should get the CC final if it is to be a proper spectacle.
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| Quote ="Perry"Perfectly within the rules for them to do so, clever play IMO. [uOf course you are relying on the ref applying the rules properly, [/uand let's face it some of them appear not to know of the differential penalty.'"
Shame Silverwood didn't apply the rules properly when Charnley clearly knocked on just seconds after the penalty, just before he scored.
Should have been a scrum to Rovers.
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| Quote ="Red & White"Shame Silverwood didn't apply the rules properly when Charnley clearly knocked on just seconds after the penalty, just before he scored.
Should have been a scrum to Rovers.'"
It wasn't a clear knock on in real time. It was only clear on slow motion, high definition replays.
Criticism of Silverwood in that game should be directed towards his allowing Wigan to hold down. That's the kind of thing that annoys me as a fan because that's a ref not applying the rules properly and allowing a team to slow the game down.
Getting an incredibly difficult, tight, 50-50 call wrong is purely a mistake, and an understandable one.
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| Quote ="Shmoo"I like it when a team exploits the rules and does something new. Adds an extra dimension to the game.
Much better than going through the motions at the scrum and everyone, including the fans, accepting that every scrum breakdown will be virutally the same.
In relation to scrums in general, I think teams should be encouranged to do something different - pushing, trapping, kicking after the breakdown, running through the broken scrum. Much better than the safe "a few passes to the left and a tackle".'"
I agree that invention is a good thing, but, we should be wary of over complicating scrums by giving them so many dimensions that officials will be forced to consider a variety of possible scrum infringements.
Look at the state of RU where some games descend into scrum fests that last for minutes on end and the likes of Brian Moore eulogise over technicalities that any non international front rower can't spot without HD slow motion replays
Be careful what you wish for
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| Quote ="dboy"Deliberately not playing to the rules is, by definition, cheating. And you're right most teams do it - doesn't make it right.'"
Feeding the ball directly between a prop's feet or into the second row at a scrum is against the rules and, by definition, cheating. Every team does it but it is NEVER penalised.
So is cheating only cheating when it is penalised?
What are your thoughts?
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| Scrums in RL are already a farce and penalties could be given at EVERY scrum that is "formed".
If it's within the rules, which it clearly is, then good on Wigan (or anyone else) for profiting from keeping the ball in.
Having said that, the scrum is an absolute joke.
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| Quote ="Fat Boy"Feeding the ball directly between a prop's feet or into the second row at a scrum is against the rules and, by definition, cheating. Every team does it but it is NEVER penalised.
So is cheating only cheating when it is penalised?
What are your thoughts?'"
The rules weren't changed, but "Feeding" as an offence was done away with a long time, by virtue of guidance given on "interpretation" of the scrum rules, hence it is no longer penalised.
No such guidance on binding at a scrum has been given.
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| Quote ="dboy"The rules weren't changed, but "Feeding" as an offence was done away with a long time, by virtue of guidance given on "interpretation" of the scrum rules, hence it is no longer penalised.
No such guidance on binding at a scrum has been given.'"
Guidance or none, feeding the scrum is braking the rules, i.e. cheating, you can't move the goal posts to suit your agenda.
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| The change in the rules was making it that the loose forward could not trap the ball.
Holding the ball in the scrum was in the rules prior 1895 AKAIK.
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| Quote ="Fat Boy"Guidance or none, feeding the scrum is braking the rules, i.e. cheating, you can't move the goal posts to suit your agenda.'"
I haven't. I agree with you.
The interpretations are in place as a result of the coaches advisory meetings! It's the clubs that drive these things.
Fed up of seeing players place the ball on the ground, then use it to lever themselves from the floor. It's a penalty, but when do you ever see it given?
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| Bit of a cheap penalty I think. Although if it stops the HB from being offside in EVERY scrum then I am for teams doing this.
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| I must be really old.
Pushing at the scrum or delaying the ball coming out are not new things. They've been around forever. It's just that the rule changes/adjustments around the scrum meant it was better to take advantage of the quick ball from the scrum. If the ball can be put "behind the props leg" then the ball is in and out in a flash. No point pushing as those players need to be defending.
Teams tend to follow each other in style and it looks like it is just the done thing.
They are not taking advantage of the rule, they are taking advantage of the other team following such a regimented plan that they are not playing what is happening on the field, they are just doing what they were told in training blindly.
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| Quote ="frankbooth64"If the opposition can be kept 'honest' (i.e. bound-in in the forwards and onside in the backs), we may see more expansive play from the scrum. It would give the scrum a 'modern purpose'. (I'm not one of those who wishes to return to the mess we used to have with so-called 'competitive' scrums and which rugby union are now finding a royal pain in the backside).'"
I think there's little chance of us going down the union road, because the focus and importance of the scrum are so different. In RL there is always going to be the emphasis on breaking as quickly as possible , whereas in RU there is a huge focus on the initial 'hit' and drive as a way of one pack or the other asserting dominance over the other. In RL we tend to assert dominance in open play with the big hits.
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| Quote ="Nothus"What are people's thoughts on this tactic?
The last couple of times I've seen Wigan play, they have won at least two penalties during the match by deliberately trapping the ball when feeding a scrum in their own 20 yard area. The opposition break early and Wigan get the differential penalty.
Last night in particular, this tactic helped them salvage something from the game, as it was exactly this type of penalty that put them in the position to score the try at the death.
So what do people think? Are Wigan being clever here? Should we blame the opposition for a lack of concentration? Or is there a slight hint of a lack of sportsmanship about doing something like this?'"
Doesn't it just expose the fact that players aren't waiting for the ball to come out before breaking/advancing?
Quote ="dboy"All Wigan have done is take advantage of the opposition trying to cheat, by not binding properly and breaking early to form a defensive pattern.'"
Exactly this. If it was the other way round there'd probably be a thread bemoaning Wigan breaking early at the scrum.
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| The other side to this is that the defending team will now break less quickly, giving the attacking team more chance of scoring from a scrum where the ball isn't trapped. It returns scrums to the reason they were retained, to provide another attacking option, and gives the greater advantage to the team that hasn't offended to create the scrum.
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| Have Wigan broken 'The spirit of the scrum'?
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