Because i CBA to go through the match thread, i will say that it was physical fitness that was the difference tonight. That's all.

Should the tournament be played in a 2 week break mid-season? A chance to see all players in all teams at the peak of their season fitness, not at the end of a 9 month slog surely would make for a more even, entertaining spectacle.

Was your post a joke?

Same old tried and tested players like Eastmond and Shenton do you mean?

Me thinks you listen to Stevo and Eddie raving about some player on Sky, saying how they should play for England just for doing one skillfull moment.

We were well in the game until Shenton got injured. His deserves his position and never let us down.



What? At 20? IIRC Edwards wasn't hitting the heights in a half back position at aged 20 and Gregory had done jack at international level at the same age. I'm pretty sure that Gregory was in one of the sides that was flogged by 'The Invincibles' when he was the same age. In fact both had done jack at international level at the same age as either Eastmond or Tomkins. I've just checked and Edwards played his first game, off the bench, against Australia aged 20 and didn't face them again until 1992 when he was 26. Gregory's record against Australia was 2 wins and 8 losses. Hardly heroic.

thank you you saved me the trouble.

You really don't know what your talking about do you ?

Edwards started from playing at Wembley in 1985. He was 16 !

If you think that that was the only difference then you need to get your medication changed.

The passing at speed and accuracy, the support play, the kicking game, that speed of thought and action, the skill level , the depth of the sqauad were all far more important.

England have some great players, have some potentially grat players BUT the Aussies are still years ahead of us.

The biggest difference is number of quality players. GB have 5 or 6 very good players, and the Aussies have around 25 so you rarely notice the difference when they have to drop a new face into the team.

We stuck with them for around an hour, which is no mean feat, but couldn't match them after that because our better players were exhausted and that really exposed our poorer players.

We can close the gap, and people like Ellis and Burgess being in the NRL will help, but we must generate more quality in numbers. Club teams playing rafts of average overseas players simply doesn't help and they effectively penalise the England team as a result.

I suggest you read the posts again before making posts like that

What's that got to do with what we're talking about?

No he didn't.
Edwards played at Wembley v Widnes in 1984 at the age of 17 years and 6 months.

He signed for Wigan on his 17th birthday in October 1983.

If shenton is nowhere near as good at attacking as senior how come he scored more tries than him? the differance between senior and shenton is that at international level senior was put into space, shenton hasnt been so he hasnt had the chance to get on the score board, and he has been our best back in defence by far.

Senior provides more tries for his winger than for himself (which Shenton doesnt do) but is more than capable of running through on his own if he needs to. That is why Leeds finished where they did and Cas finished where they did.

I never denied Shenton was good defensively, read what I wrote.

I think there's rather more to the final positions than a single centre on each team.

We could list all the other positions aswell but then we get in to a club vs club tit for tat.

I just think Senior offers more than one threat going forward. You shut down Shenton and that whole left side attack dies. Everytime someone shut down Senior this season it resulted in a Ryan Hall try.

In 2008 shenton got more try assists than senior because he had a good young winger outside him, in 2009 most of the season shenton had castlefords reserve winger outside of him. Shenton scored more tries than senior (or any other centre this season) last season he scored one less than senior and got one more assist. Now shenton has done that in a 12th place and a 7th place team, if senior was swapped round with shenton, senior would score less tries and set less tries up and shenton would score more tries and set more up, that much is obvious as anyone knows that its far easier to score tries in a dominant team.

If you think that the differance in league positions was down to the differance between shenton and senior your not very smart.

i know you never said shenton wasnt good defensivly (though that much is obvious, only a blind man wouldnt rate him as our best back in defence) but you said that he was far behind senior in attack despite the fact he has done as well or bettered senior in attack for the last two years and has done so in a far less dominant team ( last year we finished bottom and the team spent 70% of the time defending and shenton still only scored one less try than senior and got one more assist, even though senior got far more (probabbly twice as many) chances in attack.

1 - Owen
2 - Fox
3 - Shenton
4 - Atkins
5 - Halley
6 - Tomkins
7 - Eastmond
8 - Peacock
9 - Diskin
10 - Graham
11 - Ellis
12 - Burgess
13 - Purdham

14 - Mccarthy-Scarsbrook
15 - Roby
16 - Crabtree
17 - Pryce

No it didnt. I've seen senior shut down a hell of a lot of times this season and no try has been scored.

And the aussies rarely had to do anything about shenton and hall as they very rarely got the ball.

Shenton scored more tries for a reason, he's better in attack than senior.

no he isnt!

Leave it off.

Because Shenny doesn't play for Leeds or Saints ? If he had a blue jersey on he would have been tonnes better than Senior. We are clearly nowhere near the standard of Leeds thats why when it comes to playing club rugby you cannot compare Shenton and Senior...because Senior gets more service being in a world class team.

Shenny deserves his spot in the England team as he has proved all the tourny.

For what it's worth my side would be:

1.?
2. Fox
3.Shenton
4.Atkins
5.Hall
6.Tomkins
7.Eastmond
8.?
9. Sinfield
10icon_confused.gif
11. Peacock
12.Ellis
13.Burgess

1. Owen
2. Fox
3. Atkins
4. Shenton
5. Hall
6. Widdop
7. Eastmond
8. Lynch
9. Diskin
10. Graham
11. Ellis (c)
12. Burgess
13. Sinfield

14. Westerman
15. Crabtree
16. Carvell
17. Tomkins

Based on if Morely & JP retire

Senior in a dominant team where he gets far more walk over tries than shenton (my 75 year old gran could have scored 4 or 5 of seniors tries this season) has scored less than shenton.

Senior may have got more assists, but he had a far better winger, when shenon had a good young winger outside him for most of the season in 2008 he got more assist than senior.

However we could argue this all day (in my experiance most leeds fans happen to think that there player is the best in every position no matter how much evidence there is to the conterary), but the comment that sparked this was that shenton was nowhere near senior in attack, which considering he scored more tries than senior is clearly an idiotic statement.

in the last two seasons-

tries- senior 23, shenton 28.
assists- senior 19, shenton 10.
meters per carry- senior 8.05, shenton 7.85
clean breaks- senior 43, shenton 34.

And all that despite senior having a far easier job of scoring in a dominant team, wheras shenton has had far less opportunities in attack.

so Senior has more assists, more metres per carry, and more clean breaks,

and you are using this as evidence Senior benefits from playing in a better team as he gets more walkover tries rather than his own quality?

cheers for proving my point though

The only one of those stats that senior has a big advantage in is try assists and he has a much better winger outside him, in meters per carry theres little to choose between them, clean breaks senior has more but not significantly more. Whilst shenton has been able to cross the line more.

Senior did this in a 1st and 2nd place team, shenton did it in a 12th and 7th placed team, if senior was in a lower placed team having to spend more time defending, having less opportunities to attack, having apoorer winger outside him and not running at tired defences as much his stats would go down, likewise the reverse would be true of shenton.

Put senior in say salfords side and he wouldnt have even been able to get into double figures for tries scored, put shenton in say saints side and he would have scored more than 20 tries ina season easily.

thanks for confirming what i said about most leeds fans rating there players as the best in very position, even when they arent