You reached a compromise 2 year contract deal with Kyle, =#FF0040when there was no offer on the table from an RU club.

Lets see you pull it off again when there's a big value (given his experience level) contract on the table.

This is completely obscene, have any of you actually seen the Wigan squad (highlighted are the ones who have played first team this year?

1. Cameron Phelps - Aussie
2. Amos Roberts - Aussie
3. Martin Gleeson - English
4. George Carmont - Aussie
5. Pat Richards - Aussie/Irish
6. Sam Tomkins - English - Wigan
7. Thomas Leuluai - Kiwi
8. Stuart Fielden - English
9. Mark Riddell - Aussie
10. Andy Coley - English
11. Harrison Hansen - Aussie - Wigan trained
12. Joel Tomkins - English - Wigan
13. Sean O'Loughlin - English - Wigan
14. Paul Prescott - English - Wigan
15. Michael McIlorum - English - Wigan
16. Phil Bailey - Aussie
17. Iafeta Paleaaesina - Kiwi

19. Paul Deacon - English
20. Karl Pryce - English
21. Eamon O'Carroll - English - Wigan
22. Shaun Ainscough English - Wigan
23. Lee Mossop - English - Wigan
24. Darrell Goulding - English - Wigan
25. Liam Farrell - English - Wigan
26. Ben Davies - English - Wigan
27. Stefan Marsh - English - Wigan
28. Joe Mellor - English - Wigan
29. Chris Tuson - English - Wigan
30. Josh Veivers - English - Wigan
31. Josh Charnley - English - Wigan
32. Jonny Walker - English - Wigan
33. Iain Thornley - English - Wigan
34. Neil Holland - English - Wigan

So for those of you who can't count that's; 24 English players, 21 English players that have featured in the Wigan first team this year, 19 Wigan lads in the squad, 14 of which have played in the first team this year. That's ignoring Hansen even though he came through the Wigan academy.

And as for next year we of the 8 none England eligible players 4 of which are likely to leave to be replaced with three; dropping out overseas players by one; all 3 of which are significantly better than the 4 that are leaving.

There are 9 non-England eligible players in your list, so you'll have 8 next year if you drop by one. That is FAR too many for a club like Wigan.

This thread is unbelievable. Name me one more side that has debuted more players in Super League this season than Wigan.

Name me one side that has more players out on Dual-Reg or Loan than Wigan.

Thornley our fifth choice, yes fifth choice. (Gleeson, Carmont, Marsh, Charnley ahead of him) has gone to Rugby Union.

Spin it anyway you want, Wigan are replacing some aussies with some better aussies, and a young centre has left the game because Sale offered him more than we could afford to under the salary cap. Absolute non story if its any other team, but it's wigan, and they where once full time when nobody else was and it WASNT FAIR!

What you backwards Goons fail to understand is that Wigan DID have enough money to keep him, they just chose to use it to pay NRL players, thus further undermining the England team's chances.

But if you can sleep at night knowing that, so be it. All the other teams have done something about it bar the horrible, immoral Goons.

Quins have more British players in their 17 than Wigan do. That's just stupid.

So you think Wigan should have paid £60k-£70k for an 18 year old who had never played in the first team because he didn't want a full-time contract so he could finish his A-Levels?

You really need some new material - either that or at least string a decent argument together that can't be blown out of the water in an instant.

The point is that NINE non England eligible players have played for Wigan this year and you are likely to have EIGHT next season.

Two of the four players leaving to allow the new three aren't playing regular first team (Feka and Phelps) where as the incoming players certainly will - so next season, there will actually be a reduction in places in the Wigan first team for England eligible players in real terms.

From what I understand, Riddell/Phelps/Feka/Bailey will be off. That leaves Roberts/Carmont/Richards/Tommy/Hansen/Hoffman/Finch/Lima - 8 non England eligible players.

It is precisely because your youth set-up is so good that those sorts of numbers are so unpalatable.

i am slighly annoyed, not to mentoion nautious that I am being forced to agree with Wigan fans.

please stop this thread now

seasick??

See (no pun intended) thats how bad its made me feel.

An instant 10 pages there.



Wigan are not acting with the wider interests of the sport's future at heart. It has been very heartening this season to see all but one of the teams in SL put faith in English players and cut the numbers of overseas players. Look at Harlequins, who could now field an all English 17, despite the precarious nature of their very existence they have taken the view that the sport as a whole would benefit if England players were fielded, thus giving the sport a viable international aspect. Wigan are, as ever given their dark history, so blinded by the glint of silver from across the hill at successful clubs like Saints and Warrington that they would do literally anything to get around the rules and wring out any possible advantage. Now the live cap has meant blatant cheating is now no longer easy to do they look to other ways in order to go outside the spirit of not only the cap but also the sport and in this case look for dodgy, probably illegal passport loopholes to ensure they have twice as many overseas players as anyone else.

Welcome to the world of sports clubs being run as successful businesses.

The English Premier League have been doing it for as long as I can remember.


How many poms play for that great 'English' side Arsenal these days?

You hire players to play for your club on their abilities........not for any other reason. It doesnt matter if its soccer, Rugby Union, League or any other sport.

Same goes for the England cricket side.

Their best players are Saffas

Notice you couldn't respond to the facts around Thornley.

The fact people like yourself are so blinded and obsessed with Wigan that you have to keep this going for 10 pages says it all.



Add in the fact you have to allege illegally as well tells us everything we need to know about you. Wigan's dominance ended well over ten years ago, get over it Saddo.

I'm guessing you've included Harrison Hansen there? If you want to split hairs Hansen is of Samoan descent and is just as England-eligible as Willie Manu, who was included in last weeks England training squad. Why is 8 out of a squad of 33 too many for Wigan but not too many for anyone else?

It's too many for everyone. It is especially noticeable at Wigan because they have a very strong youth set up and a chairman that not long ago was talking about his dream of an all English team but now looks to double the quota for his club.

so your team DONT have any overseas players then.
and how many academy players have your team supplied to all the other teams in the leagues because there are too many of them to play in their home town team or the first team of the academy that trained them up?

by the way thicko you can not have more overseas players than the quota allows!!!!

i think people are confusing Wigans youth development and overseas players. Those these are obviously linked, they arent the same. Wigan do have good youth development, nobody can sensibly deny that. They are up there with Leeds, Saints and maybe Hull as being the leaders in that respect.

But they are still going into next season with 8 overseas players, 3 of them new ones. Its an unacceptably high amount for Wigan, and its unacceptable for leeds to have 7.

Its the same at Leeds, whilst i would encourage us to bring in players the quality of Webb, Lauitiiti, Buderus and Eastwood, we should be forced to develop the Donalds, Lueluais, and Delanys ourselves.

Wigan are in a similar position. they should be forced to bring through decent english players instead of bringing in decent australian players. Who knows how much Ainscough would have improved the deficencies in his game had wigan been forced to persist with him, giving him SL game time over the past 2 years rather than just lumping for a Roberts or a Phelps.

For a club like Wigan? If we are signing players within the rules (which we are), and have a squad that fits both the salary cap and quota restrictions (which we do) then it CANNOT be "too many". Can it? In your opinion as a fan of a rival team it may not appeal to you, but it cannot actually be too many.

It seems people are making out that Wigan are breaking a secret code of conduct or "spirit of the game" by replacing current players with better players, shouldn't every club aspire to bring the best possible talent to their club in order to succeed? Of course ideally these players would be English, but if English players of sufficient calibre are not available, why should a team suffer? Wigan ARE producing quality young players, this can be seen in the likes of Farrell, Tuson, Sam and Joel tomkins, Charnley. But of course some aren't going to meet the standards required and so will leave the club. Others will be offered more money from other clubs. These players playing in super league, albeit at different clubs, still benefits the English game though doesn't it?

Ok so Thornley is a different case as he has left the sport. But as the point has been made already, no rugby league club signed him. He never even played first team rugby for Wigan. How many of you saying how great a loss he is actually saw him play and know how good he is? I'm a wigan fan who lives outside of wigan, I don't get to watch the under 20's etc and i've never seen him play. So i'm sure many of those lambasting Wigan for releasing such a quality young player are just jumping on the bandwagon, having never seen him play.

The problem I see is that with the quota being reduced the price of English players is surely being raised, as clubs need to sign more quality English players. Could the issue be that some overseas players are actually better value than equivalent English players? In my opinion the best way to approach the issue is not to attack the clubs signing overseas players, but look at why they are doing it. As has been said before, if home-grown players, or even english players, didn't count fully on the cap then maybe you'd see players like Thornely being offered more money (admittedly probably more than their worth) to stay?

they are doing it because it is easier, and a overseas players do provide better value.

They provide better value because we simply dont have that many english players coming through, so a 2nd/3rd tier aussie stuggling to make any money out in Aus like Charlie Leeano can come over here and get a decent full time wage. Sadly Leeano as probably a 4th tier australian as as good as most british players. So yes, they get better value and it is easier, why wouldnt they.

Thornley is a red herring, we should be producing 30 of him a year. But we arent. Why would a club spend all that money on developing him, spend all that money on his coaches, offer him a good contract if they can go out and get a ready made George Carmont? they wont, they are looking to seek a competitive advantage and there is a ton of them ready and waiting down under.

We need to make it in the clubs benefit to bring in huge numbers of youngters.

Thats not absolve the clubs though, they have been selfish and short-termist and failed in their duty to the sport

The bit in bold is the key. Wigan did this with Thornley, and yet he still left. Do you (this not aimed at you Smokey but everyone) not think that given the choice, and having spent so much money, Wigan would have wanted to keep him? Do people really think that a club spends all that money to bring players through, with the intention of just letting them go, and not trying to sign them? At the same time, a difference in salary cap I would imagine prevents any rugby league club from competing with a union club for a young english player. This could become a very serious issue in the next few years.


With the salary cap as it is, how would this be done? To cut all/almost all overseas players would sadly see a decline in quality in the league. But maybe this short-term decline is the only way in the long run? I'd like to see the best players in super league, no matter where they are from, without them it becomes somewhat less "super". I don't think cutting out overseas players is the solution, not completely. So it HAS to be a change in the cap in relation to english/british players.


Definitely, as a Wigan fan i've only got to look at the last ten years (i'm only 20 now) to see the damage that this can cause. Which makes the current criticism all the more difficult to swalllow, because everyone can surely see how far the Wigan club has come in the last couple of years since Lenegan took over?

I don't have any problem with Thornley leaving. Young players have choices to make and sometimes they don't make the one you would like them too. Wigan can't go around throwing big bucks at every young player who has yet to make his debut but is touted as the next big thing.

My issue is more general. A couple of months back there was a thread on the Wigan board where Wigan fans were posting what they thought was their best, fully fit XVII. The majority of those teams did not include any of Feka/Bailey/Phelps.

So yes, 3 are coming in and 4 are leaving. In theory, the position is better for Wigan youngsters but in reality it isn't, because in 2010 there will be 2 MORE overseas players in the first choice Wigan XVII than in 2010, despite the quota being reduced.

That is my concern. The signings are being passed off by Wigan fans as "three in four out" but it isn't as simple as that. There is no need at all for Wigan to have 8 England ineligible players next season. Saints, in comparison, are likely to have just 4 England ineligible players next season. An extra 4 English players across all SL clubs playing week-in, week-out could have a massive difference to the development of young players in this country, but unfortunately self interest reigns supreme.

8?

7 seems more likely, even less if we can pick Manu for England....

Hoffman
Lima
Finch
Leuluai
Roberts
Richards (qualifies on residency)
Hansen (qualifies on residency)

Carmont?

I thought it was Riddell/Feka/Phelps/Bailey leaving?

Carmont will be here next season but there are pretty strong rumours that Roberts may not