If we are going down that route I belive Clint Newton's mother is english.
Do I want Clint playing for england though....................Nope.

im not sure how this is even relevent to manu playing for england. hayne played his first test for australia in 2007 against nz. he was then allowed to switch to fiji for the world cup (qualified through a fijian father) which we all know is an absolute joke, before switching back to australia in 09. it is completely different to somebody who signed a sporting contract to move to england and 3 years later potentially play for england. australia have never done a faasavalu, brent webb, nathan fien or potntially a willie manu.

carroll is a joke. im in no way defending playing for two countries, it is my biggest pet hate in rugby league, but i do remember the circumstances in why he played for nz quite well. he had already played origin for qld, when in the year 2000 he didnt make the australian team and was encouraged quite strongly by the arl to play for nz as it would affect his chances of representing qld and australia in the future. the arl stupidly had the impression that the world cup matches werent test matches (which they have since rightfully corrected) and they wanted to 'even' up the competition as much as possible so they encouraged a number of players to play tests for their second choice nations. this is a view they still share today and it holds international rugby league back immensely. tonie carroll moved to australia as a toddler and had the choice of representing aus or nz, but he should never had been allowed to play for both.

again though, this has nothing to do with england selecting willie manu so im not sure the relevance in mentioning carroll????

ben te'o could one day

Henry Paul.

auckland born Tonga international Willie Mason? Fijian Born fijian international Lote Tuqiri?

Karmichael Hunt was born in NZ and played amateur RL in NZ before representing Australia

Brad Thorn was born in NZ and represented NZ at Union

Brent Kite represented Tonga, and was named in the Tonga squad for the 2008 WC before the Aussies decided they wanted him.

all of these scenarios are completely different to willie manu. willie manu moved to england because of a sporting contract to play rugby league in his late 20's. the players you mention are australians with dual nationalities.

mason was born in auckland while his australian father and tonga mother lived there for a while before they returned to australia when he was aged 2. he is not a new zealander.

tuquri and family emigrated here when he was 3 or 4.

hunt and family emigrated here aged 10.

thorn emigrated here with family as a young child before moving through the ranks to play for qld and australia before switching to nz union.

kite was born in australia to an australian father and tongan mother and has played tests for both tonga and australia.


i understand your frustration with players playing for more than one country, i share your frustration. but as i said previously, australia has never had a player in willie manus or maurie faasavalu's situation with england play for them. as spud also said, this may change with ben teo, if it does ill be the first one to criticise the incompetent arl. i wont be surprised if it does happen as i believe the arl hold the international game back more than anyone, just not for the same reasons you do. the arl (who are basically the rlif) encourage players such as kite, mason, carroll, tuquri to play for other countries telling them it wont damage their future chances with origin and australia to try and make these countries more competitive so they dont have to put any real development work into these countries.

With this only being a train on squad things may change drastically later in the year. My thoughts are that we dont need Manu in the side. Yes a good player although the past couple of years I've felt he has a spell of two or three good games then he gets a bit quiet for a few more and if he's in his mediocre stage while playing for England when there are youngsters available it would seem a pointless exercise.

Obviously speaking as a Hull KR fan I would have been interested to see Liam Watts get a call up to the train on squad just for the experience of being around some top quality players and see if this could develop his game any further.

In 10 pages of posts I cant believe nobody has even questioned why this squad is left upto one mans decision. For many years the Aussies have had a selection panel and the coach is there to do just that, coach the set of players the selectors think will do the best job for their country. It hasn't let them down in a long long time so I dont see why the RFL shouldn't look into this too.

On the subject of Macnamara being England coach, the RFL were damned if they did and damned if they didnt. Most wanted an English coach but many would have only been happy for Kear to take the reigns. McDermott or Macnamara would have and are seen as poor choice of coach because they've not done too much at club level. Noble has been there and failed while Sharp is nowhere near the right level. So what were the RFL supposed to do?

Back to the poster that said "No" to Tom Briscoe. As a HKR fan I can honestly say Tom is the hottest prospect for a winger this country has had for a long time. He's very strong, confident and has plenty of growing left to do, this is without saying about his undoubted speed and defensive ability. Is good as Foxy is I dont actaully think he's a good choice for England, he is a confidence player who when he makes mistakes tends to make more and more until he does something good, in an England side that has been given their backsides by the Aussies many times before he might just lost that confidence and have a very poor series. Good back up player but Broscoe should be in IMO.

I just hope for the good of the English youngsters that Manu is ommited from the Tri-Nations squad and our youngsters are brought through in this competition giving them time to work on their game before the World Cup.

i think you are wrong. You are drawing in aribitrary line and deciding someone like Hunt, born in auckland to Tongan and Cook Islander parents before moving to Australia is Australian, but someone like Manu, born in Sydney to Tongan parents before moving to britain cant be british, Hunts Australian nationality is solely on residency, as is Masons, as is Civonicevas

Not forgetting the enquiries the ARL made re Fuifui Moimoi

The problem isnt the ARL encouraging these players to play for their nations, its them then demanding that they turn their back on their nations in order to play origin. The game as a whole would have been better for Kite, Mason, Hayne, Tuqiri, Hunt staying with their nations and still being allowed to play origin, like Adrian Lam.

fact is, given the opportunity any player worth his salt wants to test himself at the highest level, when its a choice between origin and the 4nation and the world cup with Australia or NZ, and basically a world cup for any of the other nations, the pacific islanders are choosing the Australia and NZ,

Petero himself has said he would have loved to represent Fiji but couldnt because of the origin rules.

i didnt decide hunt was australian, i have seen numerous interviews with him talking about his pride in representing australia and why he turned down nz. i didnt say he wasnt also a kiwi, or had connections to his parents countries which are samoa and the cook islands. as i said previously, mason was born in nz while hs australian father lived there for a couple of years before moving back to australia, and yes civonicevas australian nationality is based on residency which doesnt make him any less aussie than me. he is also a very proud fijian. manu moved to england for work purposes, surely you can see the difference here?



nothing more than a media beat up. a journo asked moi moi if he wanted to play origin, of course he said yes.



they did stay with their nation, their nation is australia. i can see why people think it would be a good idea to play origin and for another nation, it is probably a better system than what we have now but it is not the best way to develop international rugby league. it is a cheap fix which will put no development into developing countries. origin is a contest between 2 states of australia and a selection trial for the national team. what we need to do is give other countries the opportunity to also play meaningful rep or test rugby league during the same time as the aussies play origin mid season, to give players who have connections to more than one country a fairer choice on who they represent. once the decision is made there will be no switching, our current situation is a farce and holds the sport back so much.



the 'pacific islanders' you talk about are also australian though, they have every right to. also, there are many players who have turned down origin to play for other countries. the kiwis world cup winning captain nathan cayless was born and raised in australia, captained the aussie schoolboys but played test footy for new zealand which was great. the island teams are full of players born and/or raised in australia. if we gave these nations more meaningful tournaments and tests, perhaps more players will commit to them, but it is a commitment. you cant play in an australian origin series or switch to aus or nz in the future.



im sure petero would be proud to play for fiji. he also says the proudest thing he has done in rugby league is represent australia. he made his choice and has stuck with it!

so if Manu decides to take up dual citizenship you don't have a problem with it?

Other sports do it all the time but it still is ridiculous and I'd rather see us continue losing with an all english team than winning (ha like Manus going to make any difference) with some Barbarian'esk made up squad.

Manu should not get a place ahead of Tomkins or Westwood. The 40 man train on squad is a joke.

Other than the reason for moving, which is completely irrelevant no.

Civonicevas parents moved for economic reasons, Manu moved for Economic reasons. Civoniceva wanted to represent his new nation, Manu wants to represent his new nation.

its geoff carr who looked into it, not a journo, and the only reason he cant is because he has represented another country in the last two years making him inelligble for origin. (lets ignore the hypocrisy of that stance considering the history of Lam and Carroll)


Nonsense, their nation is whatever they decide it is. And when you have a player like Petero, a proud fijian, born in fiji, or fijian heritage unable to choose to represent fiji (even though he has publicly said he would like to) because he also would like to represent his state, it shows the double standard Australia apply.

And you are right, the answer is to give meaningful test and rep rugby to the pac islanders, but considering the lip service the NRL and ARL pay the NZRL and RFL I cant imagine that happening any time soon.


what are they getting in return for making this commitment?

In return for giving up the chance to play meaningful, top tier internationals every year, for giving up origin, what do they get? a game against the Prime ministers x111? a tournament against the other 2nd tier nations if we can be d putting one together for them? a world cup every so often?
and the choice clearly favoured australia, had petero being split 50-50 over which nation to represent, the opportunities offered by Australia far far far outweigh those offered by Fiji

not at all, he isnt english, isnt good enough and has played for another country.

well if you cant see the difference between somebody such as civoniceva who moved to australia before he turned 1, who grew up playing rugby league in qld and went on to make the nrl, his state and his country playing for australia, and manu who grew up playing rugby league in australia and took up a contract to play rugby league in england before being named in a 30 man squad with the potential to play tests for england after 3 years residency, then i think we are wasting our time here.



geoff carr is an idiot who makes things up as he goes along. the further away he is from rugby league, in particular international rugby league the better.



an australian playing for qld and australia is now a problem?



completely agree with you, the arl are terrible for the international game and usually only have their own interests at heart. massive change is needed in order to help grow our game. i would hope that the rfl and nzrl make a stand against them one day for the good of the game, i dont know why they dont.



i agree with you here as i have stated in my posts. they need more a chance to play regular, meaningful tests and tournaments and perhaps more players of their heritage will commit to them. in saying that, if someone such as fui fui moi moi for example was truly a tongan, surely he would stick to playing for them and nobody else. i would never play any sport for a country other than australia!



i see your point, but again, an australian is playing for australia so i dont see the relevance here in comparison to willie manu.


one thing we would all agree on though is the one nation for life rule right? this nation swapping is massively damaging the game at international level and is one of the biggest issues holding us back as a sport. why cant the powers that be understand this?

If Manu plays for England and scores the winning try against Australia you won't all be whinging then.

In fact I reckon you will all be saying what a great rule it is that non English nationals can be given the wonderful opportunity to represent such a fantastic sporting nation as England.

APPARENTLY....According to some on these boards.......

Barry_McKenzie was born in the North of England but is now the pride of Australia

Insane!

why did that start?

ive been accused of being someone called AP before as well

Bazza...I know you're a true crim (and if you aren't, you should be banged up)......and you're like a breath of fabreeze after the guff served up by the other colonial upstarts.......

in other news
I thought this thread was going to be moved to other sports......Man U for England? Don't be daft...their squads all johnny foreigner

...just like HKR

in principle there is no difference. Where are you wanting to draw the line? 1 year old? 10 year old? 15? 20? 25? are you prepared to tell someone who moved a little later than YOUR limit that THEY arent the nationality THEY decide to be?

so it wasnt a media beat up was it?

it isnt a problem at all. A fijian not being able to play for Fiji is.

because the ARL would take their bat and ball home and we will see the poor international game we saw between 96 and 04 again.

so you are Tongan, but you also qualify for Australia. You can play in top tier RL in the every year, you can play in NZ, Australia, france, and England every two years, you can play in a world cup every 4 and a tour every 4, you can also play in the origin series once a year. And you would give that up just so you can represent Tonga once every so often?



No, i dont agree at all. The one nation for life rule will only weaken the 2nd/3rd tier nations. No decent player is going to risk missing out on the opportunities playing for one of the big three offers for the chance to maybe represent one of their nations in a 2nd tier comp

we need to make it so the decision doesnt need to be made. Where FuiFui can represent Tonga AND play international rugby at the highest level

we dont seem to be getting anywhere on this point. age has nothing to do with it, manu only moved to england to take up a sporting contract with a club, he is not english and should not even be considered. end of story, i dont see how you cant seem to understand this.



[urlhttp://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/spo...-1225882487266[/url

looks like it wasnt, but it was the nsw selectors who are even more retarded than carr who actually said no to the idea.





assuming you're referring to petero, he plays tests for australia, he made his choice and has stuck with it. fijians have the chance to play for their country. there was a pacific cup last year and they also have played tests v png and samoa. having more tests with full strength teams available would be a good thing.



i dont think they would, we have to play against somebody! other countries should voice their concerns about the amount of power the arl have in the international game.



last year tonga played in a pacific cup, this year they have tests against samoa and possibly png. if you are truly tongan, you would play for tonga. they also had the chance to play in this years 4 nations by winning the pacific cup last year. if there was a one nation policy they could have a chance to build a team over the years in the build up to the world cup but they seem to take the easy option every time and pick players who would be rather playing for someone else and it shows.



the system we have now is a disgrace and does nothing for the long term development of pacific nations. allowing players to pick and choose almost at will is just a quick fix, and the results have showed. by locking players into playing for a nation such as tonga for example gives them an opportunity to build a national team over the years and gives them a clear cut choice in the players they have eligible every year. in the last world cup tonga were a joke. they picked current australian internationals, current nz internationals and pretty much anyone who had a link to tonga and also completely ignored the domestic quota rule and their results showed.



that is ridiculous! playing for your country is the highest level. it seems that you would be happy having 6 teams of australians of different backgrounds pretending to be national teams playing in a world cup. allowing players to play for 2 different countries is the biggest thing holding us back as a sport internationally.

and Petero's dad only moved to Aus because of the economic opportunities it offered. It isnt like young Petero at 1 year old decided that Australia was his cultural and spiritual home.

they both migrated because of economics, one earlier than the other

but it shows the aussies clearly arent above 'that sort of thing'

he personally has said he would have liked to play for Fiji. Jarryd Hayne and Lote Tuqiri did. They then chose Australia because of the greater opportunities it offered

or they could just not play them, its not like they earn loads of cash from them.

like FuiFui MoiMoi, who only came to Australia to take up a sporting contract, who could barely speak the language when he moved, He isnt a true Tongan?
but they wouldnt, they simply wouldnt choose to play for Tonga, people qualified for Tonga wouldnt play for them, they would risk not playing meaningful international RL for their whole career by playing a game or two against 2nd tier nations.

playing for your country should be, unfortunately it isnt. Because if you dont play for England, NZ or Aus, representing your nation means you never test yourself against the best teams in the world.

When was the last time Tonga played one of the big three in a full test match? Samoa? the Cook Islands? outside of the world cup Fiji?

And i'll show my in Wollies window if that happens

no they didnt. petero was raised in australia. manu moved to england on a sporting contract. peteros australian, manus not english. end of story!



possibly true, but as it stands today we havnt had a manu play for australia.



he said he would help out fiji after he has retired from rep footy in australia. hayne played a test match for australia in 2007, and after missing out on the aussie world cup squad he then played for fiji. up until that point he had no idea about his fijian heritage other than his dad was born there. lote played for fiji in the 2000 world cup with the knowledge he would still be able to play origin and for australia. if there was a one nation for life rule he would still be locked into fiji. if that rule forced him to abandon fiji because he wants to play for australia then so be it, its not like fiji really gained anything out of him (and hayne) playing for them for one world cup only and them dropping them as soon as they are good enough for origin and australia.



the international board does, and the players want to play for their country. i would like to see the rfl and nzrl make a stand against the arl and not bow down to their every request. apparently the future rlif board will also have voting members from the newly formed pacific federation and the euro fed.



you do know moi moi grew up and went to school in nz right? of course he could speak the language, he is a shy man and didnt want to face the media so he pretended not to speak english. as for being a true tongan, its up to him i guess but so far he has gone from tonga in 06, to nz in 07, back to tonga in 08 (switching back by taking the rlif to court but not actually playing) and back to nz in 2009. you dont think this makes an absolute mockery of our sport?



then they dont play international rugby league then! playing for a country is a commitment, not something you do because you missed out on playing for another country and just want to compete in a tournament before switching back to the original country you wanted to represent. i understand the frustration of these nations not playing enough meaningful tests and tournaments, this is changing but not quickly enough. it needs to change in the future for the good of our international game.



this is slowly changing through tournaments such as the 4 nations, world cup and pacific cups. more needs to be done though, esecially mid season when australia play origin.



tonga play nz this year, samoa have played full tests v nz the last 2 years both outside of the world cup. fiji have played the odd test v australia over the years and have started playing png annually. this isnt enough, but it is a small start.

well they did.

But anyway how long do you have to live there to be 'raised' there? do you move there at 1? 5? 10? 15? 20? 25?

by your rapidly changing defintion

Yes, he said he wanted to play for Fiji but didnt because of Origin

Speak to someone in Fiji about the incalcuable benefits they got from having a successful team in the 2008 WC,

[iFijian rugby league had already received its greatest ever boost from the team's progress in the competition, with such a rush on satellite dishes to watch this game that there were none left available on the islands. Now they will receive another Aus$300,000 as the reward for reaching the final four of the World Cup, while Ireland's players will console themselves with Aus$75,000 and a host of happy memories for their economy class flight home.[/iwww.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/10/irelandrugbyleagueteam-fijirugbyleagueteam

If Hayne wants to represent Fiji his career and earning potential shouldnt be damaged by it by missing out on things like origin


and the international board can demand what they want, if the ARL dont want to play, they cant force them.

Brian Smith says different.

But no, i dont think it makes a mockery of our sport, im not sure how a person having two different parts of his heritage he wants to represent is a mockery. It happens in all sports,

how is our international game benefiting by having fewer nations playing at a high level and more good players sat at home not playing hoping that they may get a shot at one of the big boys? Why does our international game benefit by having fewer top players playing it, and more lesser players playing at a lower level?

its a very small start, and when we are in position where a player choosing to represent Fiji has the same opportunities as those choosing to play for Australia we can be stricter in the selection criteria