Ok Smokey, so what do you have to say now? Crusaders beat Huddersfield and Wakefield beat Cas! Wakefield's adjusted league position is now 11th above Salford, Hull KR and Crusaders but apparently they are nothing but a folly! The point is they continue to perform and have never been the bottom side in this competition since being admitted and in actual fact they are a mid-table team with an above average level of home support for SL. Crap ground, yes, poor side, no.

I am disappointed that Crusaders has not really worked, I did support their original inclusion but failing twice (yes, it is twice because if Moss and Roberts had not stepped in they were going under mate... simple as) but the RFL can not continue to justify their inclusion above Wakefield just because they have a nice ground. Nice ground, no fans, no sponsors, no money (even the £700k the RFL gave them has been spent) and seemingly no chance of real long-term future investment under the current ownership. I am a believer in expansion but you this has proved to be too much too early and long term sustainability has to come above just quick expansion for quick expansions sake.

I think my part in this argument has now concluded, I can be bothered having a battle of wits with an unarmed man but I do have one final question for you. Lets postulate that Salford are not building a new stadium and staying at the Willows, and given their record as by far the consistently poorest team in SL by a long way, would they be the team that should go over anyone else?

Go on then, I've a spare half hour.




Surely never being relegated from SL is a small success?

By being responsible, does that mean, unable to get a Sugar Daddy on board, or a Council to allow redevelopment of the said dilapidated stadium, maybe even building a new one, ala Salford / Widnes?






Spin it how you like, they were in South Wales, and had to move north, to keep the show on the road, that’s once, went bust last year, that’s twice.





I’m not saying R.L cannot work in Wrexham, or South Wales for that matter, the fact is, the speed of their inclusion has proved to be a folly.

Idea was rushed, awful, awful implementation, hence the Crusaders have failed in soooo many areas. Which is not fair on their fans, everyone knew that they were rushed into Super League without having a viable club.

Get over yourself Smokey, face facts for once instead of living in your little dream world.

I wouldnt be as idiotic as pretending something as transient as form over 11 games was relevant. I wouldnt be idiotic enough to pretend that 4 wins and 7 losses is form to be proud of.

And if Moss and Roberts had put them into administration when they moved the franchise, they wouldnt have had to go in again last pre-season. They have gone bust, once. Only someone looking to promote an agenda would even consider counting it twice. And the 'nice stadium' issue wouldnt be an issue if Wakefield had built themselves into a club which really added to SL. They didnt. That isnt Crusaders fault. It is Wakefields. really? Crusaders have had the temerity to not only borrow money but spend it? I thought they would have borrowed that 700K and had it sitting around in the bank. Seemingly because of an extrapolation you have taken from an article which specificaly mentions its own irrelevancy to Crusaders.
You say you believe in expansion and you want long term sustainability but you want to kick them out after giving them 2 seasons in SL because they havent already reached the point Wakefield took over 100 years to reach. Its mental

Yes. If Salford werent a club that had invested massively in young british players, hadnt put in place the long-term plans they have done, hadnt succeeded in building new facilities the game could be proud of and didnt have the proven financial stability they have then yes. They would likely also be in trouble. fact is, they did these things.

In the same way not stabbing yourself in the head is a small success. Im not sure we should be celebrating not quite being the worst.

It means you are responsible for the facilities you play in. If they arent good enough then they need to improve them. However they do that is up to Wakefield.

Except that isnt once. Its the moved once, and went bust once. The fact is that when they went bust, historic debts from the south wales effort were publicly stated to be the main reason. These debts are the reason they moved north and went bust. You are counting the same thing twice.



Im not saying that RL cannot work in Wakefield, but lets look at some facts. Even in their 3rd year of SL Wakefield were struggling with attendances around the 4k mark, they were full of mediocre overseas players, and struggling at the bottom of the table. In 2001 they had 5 sub 3k crowds and only one 5k+crowd and the finished 11th. IN 2002 they had only 4 crowds above 4k in the whole season and finished 11th. in 2003 they had only 2 crowds above 5k finishing 11th. here we are talking about Wakefield, a heartland club, with Leeds, Hudds, bradford, and Cas on their doorstep and we are talking about them 4/5/6 years in to SL and it took another 5/6 years for them to build to even this point.

You are trying to compare Wakefield after 12 years to Crusaders after 2.

in 2001 Wakefields 3rd year of SL rugby, they got 1 crowd above 5k. ONE
in 2010 Crusaders 2nd year of SL rugby they got 7 crowds above 5k and one above 10k

Im not arguing Wakefield should go down. Im arguing that A) wishing death on Crusaders because Wakefield have got themselves into a position where they are likely to be demoted is pathetic and B) That Crusaders arent doing too bad for only their 3rd year of SL

' Death Riding ' , now ' Wishing Death ' , FFS grow up will you , one of these days you'll realise that the Emporer is actually naked

How does the ignore button work?

Don't ignore him , it's funnier to actually read his garbage , just don't reply

I like his username - with the TA reference I imagine him to be like Tackleberry in Police Acadamy, except not so smart.

I assume it is reference to the film ' Smokey and the bandit ' with the star car being a Pontiac Trans Am

And one day you will realise that rantings are that of a pathetic and bitter old man who was so stuck this game, and the rest of the world, left him behind.

That is really tragic if that is the case!!!

Unless he is about 10 of course.


I used to like that car too. But then when I hit puberty the novelty sort of wore off a bit.

really its not. i find my VT experience to be much more pleasent now i have embraced the ignore setting.

It certainly does clear things up a bit doesn't it

I'm all for a bit of banter but some of the stuff you read on here is just wholly unnecessary in my opinion.

Anyway. I'm off to the pub!!

They may have been publicly stated as the reason by Moss and Roberts, but if you believe that then you are even more niaive than you appear on here.

In fact, the administrator's report into the business stated that slightly less than 50% of the total debt was accrued in South Wales, with the rest being run up in one season at Wrexham.

But that means, even by your calculations, that Crusaders were carrying about twice the amount of debt they would have had they gone bust and come out of administration as Crusaders in Wrexham. To say double the amount of debt wouldnt make a huge difference to Crusaders ability to operate when they moved is crazy.

The fact is, the move to Wrexham is counted as equivelant to Crusaders administration yet they received none of the benefits of going into administration. Benefits that if they had received would have made a fundamental difference to whether or not they would have gone into administration when in Wrexham. That is why it is unfair to count the same problems twice.

Hi Smokey, rather than going deeper and deeper into stuff, the original point was, and presumably still is, your assumption that it’s pathetic wanting a rival club to fail, to save your own.

I think your stance is very commendable, maybe if my club was as successful as yours, I too would probably have a similar viewpoint, however, you can pontificate all you want, if you were to ask a cross section of supporters whether they would happily see another club in the mire, to protect their own, the yes vote would be overwhelming.

I’ve never (in forty years) seen my club win anything of importance, whereas you have probable seen the lot, the feelings of elation you have felt, well, I can only dream. But the feelings of despair, both with on-field disappointments & winding up orders, you haven’t got a clue.

Well Its only a postulation IA but grossly unfair to highlight of one of the handful only of clubs never to go bust. Yes 100 years of paying debts, bringing through stars of the past and present, a club which has lived within its means, gaining respect on how well its affairs have been handled through the years - a club not without success but agreed it is some time ago. So - why deny them the opportunity to function in their spanking new stadium in an area with a drawing power of maybe 2 million Northerners. Keep postulating matey.

As a leeds Utd fan ive seen enough disappointment and winding up orders, and despair to last a lifetime. But i never wished to see another club go through what we have.

Of course it would DA.That's if everybody answered honestly.You will always get one or two bullters saying they would happily have their club step aside 'for the good of the game' but that's all they are,bullters.It's only human nature to want the best for oneself,even if it's at the expense of another.When a person goes for a job along with another dozen candidates does he/she hope that the best person gets the job for the good of the company or they themselves get the job?

Sadly a lot of workshy layabouts who earn more money on the dole than they would in a job (but have to attend interviews or their benefits get cut) definately hope the former.

That's not a nice thing to say about the team that run the RFL.

Firstly, a bit of advice, you really need to shake off that inferiority complex that so many Salford fans unfortunately have... I don't think Salford are in any way inferior, so why do you?

Secondly, it is grossly unfair to take my post totally of out context (although I suspect you could not help yourself... see above) or possibly you failed to read the full exchange between Smokey and I (and to be fair, I would let you off if that is the case)? Lets just assume that you just didn't understand the context of my post as I think that is most likely the reason for your highly defensive reply.

In respect of the current franchising process then it might surprise you to hear (although, if you had read some of my other posts on the VT on Salford then it wouldn't be a surprise at all) that I think Salford should be 100% granted a franchise and if I had to 'rank' them, certainly way ahead of Wakefield, Castleford, Quins, Crusaders. The main reasons being that they have been around for a very long time but most importantly they (well Salford Council and Peel) have invested in delivering a new stadium and it would be more than grossly unfair to deny them a franchise given this and the emphasis that the current regime at the RFL (rightly of wrongly) have placed on this element of the applications.

I also don't know if you purposely meant to further back up my argument as to why Wakefield should be given a franchise ahead of Crusaders (the thing I have been arguing about) but if you take out the 'never gone bust comment' then don't you and Wakefield sound a lot alike?

I postulated this scenario to Smokey to highlight is anti-Wakefield bias and not put Salford down and he duly obliged in his, yet again, p1ss poor reply below -



You see the thing is Smokey thinks that Wakefield should go ahead of Crusaders, where I believe Crusaders should not be given another licence and that the RFL should start again, with the hindsight gained, with a longer term strategy to work on getting the South Wales Scorpions (or it's successors club) into SL. You see, that was the RFL's idea was is it not, to get a SL in South Wales... otherwise, why didn't the RFL start a team up in Wrexham in the first place... of was this the 'Baldrick-esque' cunning plan all along?

Finally, the massive main point of my postulation, that you totally missed, was in actual fact, despite Salford being the poorest team on-field in the SL era (sorry, matey hate to break this to you... this is true!) that even if they had not got Salford council to build them a nice new stadium I still think they should be given a licence and Crusaders not!

Whoops!

?

So you made an argument you didnt believe, then attributed it to me, then argued against it, then pretended you had argued against my argument? par for the course really.

If you take out the not going bust, getting a new stadium and access to a potential support base of 2million people which leaves 'a club not without success but agreed it is some time ago' but yes, that probably does sound a bit like Wakefield.

So hang on. You agree (even though strangely it is your example of a club that should be in trouble) that Salford are different, have more going for them, and even you think they arent and shouldnt be in trouble because of what they have managed but to say so is a poor reply?

Whilst i do, I havent said so anywhere on this thread, it wasnt and still isnt my argument, It is your attempt again to attribute something to me which I havent said, because you are trying to change the argument to cover up for what you know to be your pathetic death riding of another club so you can carry on licking the ass of the Wakefield fans and you can continue to feel special Why? What good would writing off everything achieved up to now and alienating the current fanbase do, just to start over all over again?The RFL didnt set up Crusaders. Why does it make a huge difference to you if the SL club for Wales is in North Wales instead of south?

are you off your tits? How, on this beautiful green earth do you suppose that Salford, a club which whilst relegated twice has survived every other season having come straight back up, and qualified for the play-offs by finishing 5th could possibly have a poorer record than Leigh or Workington?