It was just a thread to remind those that point the finger to look in the mirror once in a while.

Not a dig in particular at KR but a prime example was their club so they were used off the top of my head.

If nothing else, and in danger of coming across a bit boy george, I'm looking forward to seeing Big Willie in Super League if nothing else. Stuart Fielden is having cold sweats and waking up 10 times a night just thinking about it.

As is Big Willie every time he thinks of Jamie Peacock!

Martin, Mellars, Witt, Sammutt, O'Hara, Withers, Bryant, Chan, Peek, Schifcofske, Hanbury, Frankenstein

(12 Foreigners at the Cru for the moment)

White, Kear, Dudson, Flower, Turkey & Murphy

(6 Welsh Born lads currently in the squad)

disgrace, kick 'em out!

Is it easier to convert an amateur RU player into a pro RL player, than "produce" a pro RL player from an amateur RL player then?

I'm presuming he means bringing a lad through your clubs scholarship system from a young age rather than picking up a lad of 18/19 and 'converting' them.

Also Gareth Thomas and Jordan James (dont know where they were born but they are Welsh)
Crusaders also have a Welsh head coach. How many Super League clubs have a British Coach? Not many

As long as SL Chairmen and coaches put club interests before those of the national team or the game as a whole, then despite rulings and caps on the number of overseas players any club can have, they will always have the maximum they are allowed. When Maguire was appointed coach at Wigan he will have been briefed to make them the most successful club in the league. To maintain last year's position he has signed three top Aussies in Finch, Hoffman and Adam Blair? You cannot blame him. But if the national teams needs were considered we would be developing more of our own talent and relying less on imported talent. Cricket have got it right according to Shane Warne. A vibrant County Competition with promotion and relegation, which exposes England's youngsters to top flight experience in the top division, which is then called upon by the country as and when it is needed. I know cricket has its own problems (and imported players) but it does seem to be getting the needs of the Counties (clubs) balanced with those of the national team at the moment. Let's hope our game can do the same.

My bad, 7 welsh born... Gareth Thomas is Welsh. Jordan James (albeit proudly welsh) is Bristol born

Hull KR have a much bigger talent pool to call on, they have one of the strongest amateur set ups in the country on their doorstep. Crusaders are part of the plan for building this in Wales. Hull KR have a ready made pool of players to pick from, Crusaders dont.
For them to be going into an SL season with a similar amount of overseas players as Crusaders is pretty pathetic.

This sport outside SL, has little to do with the poor youth development and lack of commitment to young british players by Hull KR.

Why is it any different to 'convert' a player than 'produce' a player? Crusaders cant take responsibility for the lack of progress over the last hundred years in Welsh Amateur Rugby League, so they are getting players where they can find them, this is a good thing.

If young Welsh players are coming through and they are good enough, then who cares whether they are converted union players or lifelong RL players, its a completely pointless distinction which you are only using to mitigate the relative success in this area by crusaders and a relative failure by other clubs.

Heartland clubs can also convert players, see Rory Kettlewell at Leeds as an example. In fact it is something Heartland clubs should be doing, if there is an RU player out there who can add to RL, bring him in, and well done to Crusaders for doing this whilst heartland clubs with all their inherent advantages have chosen to ignore british youth and bring over average antipodeans.

Did you miss the four Aussies which left the club too? Hell you didn't even manage to name the correct players that have joined Wigan.

I don't have a problem with export players, tell me if the Crusaders or Robbins win either the Challenge Cup or Super League would their supporters actually give a stuff where the players come from

Substitute Jeff Lima for Adam Blair. I wasn't having a go at Wigan, as I said in my post, you cannot blame Maguire for doing the job he was appointed to do. If Wigan win the GF again next year he will be vindicated. My point is simply that whilst the needs of the national game come second to the needs of the clubs, quality import players will be found at every club and this will restrict the number of British players gaining experience at the highest level. The official Wigan website has on its squad page, possibly seven import players - Carmont, Leuluai, Lima, Hoffman, Finch, Roberts and Richards - I'm sure you will correct me if I have mistakenly labelled them 'imports' or if they have already left the club. My point is that if our SL champions may be fielding import players which represent up to half of their starting thirteen, this is disappointing for our national team. This is not an anti-Wigan point, other clubs will be doing exactly the same. Wigan is arguably the greatest hot-bed of rugby league in the country and has quite possibly produced more internationals for Great Britain than any other area. This is why I worry for our national team when a great club like Wigan decides, for whatever reason, to have so many imports on its books rather than use more local players. The same can be said of Saints, Leeds, etc, but I thought that using our champions to make the point would give it more credibility.

I am not comparing how easy or difficult it is , just that it is different , a RU player at age 17/18 who hasn't been fortunate enough to be picked up by the local pro RU team will be better prepared to play open age pro RL than a 15/16 yr old RL player 4 years through a scholarship/academy

And lets not forget here that the Wrexham/Welsh Crusaders have not produced anybody , the players they have are products of the Celtic crusaders and the SWS

Born and raised in Oldham , if you are going to post things , try ' wiki ' first

The ' Crusaders ' , Welsh/Wrexham or otherwise haven't produced anything yet , there only achievement is to complete a season of SL matches

HKR will produce players shortly , as you well know

So, as you are refusing to acknowledge the positives of the Welsh franchise as a whole, im guessing your attitude will be the same to the negatives? And as such, this Welsh franchise as 'W Crusaders' have never been bust, never gone into administration, never had visa problems with any of their players and you wont be bringing those negatives up then?

I have never suggested they had , find me a link if you like

Well, no, they havent even done that apparently. They are a completely new business, new club, and as such have done nothing, either positive or negative.


Time will tell,

Seems odd, and very telling that you are crediting Hull KR with something they are yet to, and may not do, Yet finding odd and meaningless distinctions to take away from what Crusaders have done

I hadnt suggested you had, notice the tense.

I just wanted to be clear that you will not, in any way, positive or negative, lump the Celtic Crusaders, Crusaders and 'W Crusaders' together as one club, following your logic they are three completely distinct and separate clubs and that you wouldnt wish to put any of the positives or negatives of any one of the clubs onto the other.

Just to make sure you are being consistent for once.


Id also ask, what has stopped Hull KR 'plugging the gap' with converted 16/17/18 year old union players? If Crusaders can do it, why couldnt HKR?

No problem , but even you must admit it is getting bit confusing , maybe you will reply to others when they lump them all together positively , just to be consistent

This is your assertion not mine. I personally think it would be overly simplistic to look at them as a brand new club, or as one club throughout.

They are where they are now, because of where they were and what they did before. Positive and Negative. It is a little silly to criticise this incarnation for the Visa issue, but not for the problems of this off-season. Similarly it would be overly kind to credit this incarnation with giving players like Elliot Kear a debut, but it would be ridiculous to not credit them with continuing to use and bring in that type of player.

People like you, love to over simplify because it allows you to build your straw men and point out contradiction and hypocrisy where there is none.

before 2007 they didn't , as you well know it takes several years to see these systems near fruit

Just out of interest are the Welsh/Wrexham Crusaders running scholarship/academies in North Wales ? , if so we should see them start to produce players in 5/6 years time

Who are ' they ' exactly ?

Owners ?

Players ?

Coaches ?

Fans ?

Or do you just mean a name ?