[uI'm afraid it is[/u. Richard Lewis was highly vocal about the fact that to raise Rugby leagues profile we needed more top class international games. Therefore Catalans were invited into Superleague so they could give leading French players a pathway to professionalism and the French national side. The year after their inclusion France.v.Great Britain tests re-started accordingly.

And no Catalans were not burdened with an instruction to be the French national side, only create a pathway for quality French RL players and aspiring young French players to reach the top. French players were just as welcome to go to St.Helens like Theo Farges did - quite a number of French lads have played in English sides.

in 2006 Casty, Fellous, Mouinis, Rinaldi, Guisset, Frasayinous, Fakir, Bosc, Verges and Fellous Etc were regulars in the side.

But Gausch had no interest in the French National side and as the years went by the French side suffered and the GB.v.France tests were pulled.

That only spurred Gausch on to abandon any idea of growing French Pro-RL and creating a pathway for youngsters. He had run an academy but shut that down, and progressively he brought in English and Antipodean players in order to try to win himself cups, which he did with the Wembley final win.

Buoyed by this he presided over a policy that didn't encourage French players anymore. gigot left, Maria and Simon were not played much. Albert and Morgue who were promising players didn't play at all towards the end of this season and French players like Seguire ,were sat on the bench for the full duration of games.

What point there ever was to Catalans has disappeared....... Expansion they are not......

Nor have I but their entry was not to "raise the profile of SL" it was to raise the profile of French International RL see above.......

***checks thread, sees its still the same Dragons bashing***


***moves back to own forum***

(Genuinely sincere comment)
Please feel free to point out any / all inaccuracies. I am quite sure there will be a good number who will appreciate this.

So, no professional RL in New Zealand either

Quote ="Donnyman"[uI'm afraid it is[/u. Richard Lewis was highly vocal about the fact that to raise Rugby leagues profile we needed more top class international games. Therefore Catalans were invited into Superleague so they could give leading French players a pathway to professionalism and the French national side. The year after their inclusion France.v.Great Britain tests re-started accordingly. And no Catalans were not burdened with an instruction to be the French national side, only create a pathway for quality French RL players and aspiring young French players to reach the top. French players were just as welcome to go to St.Helens like Theo Farges did - quite a number of French lads have played in English sides. in 2006 Casty, Fellous, Mouinis, Rinaldi, Guisset, Frasayinous, Fakir, Bosc, Verges and Fellous Etc were regulars in the side. But Gausch had no interest in the French National side and as the years went by the French side suffered and the GB.v.France tests were pulled. That only spurred Gausch on to abandon any idea of growing French Pro-RL and creating a pathway for youngsters. He had run an academy but shut that down, and progressively he brought in English and Antipodean players in order to try to win himself cups, which he did with the Wembley final win. Buoyed by this he presided over a policy that didn't encourage French players anymore. gigot left, Maria and Simon were not played much. Albert and Morgue who were promising players didn't play at all towards the end of this season and French players like Seguire ,were sat on the bench for the full duration of games. What point there ever was to Catalans has disappeared....... Expansion they are not......'" I cannot find any quote from Richard Lewis similar to your assertion.Could you assist,please? He did seem to want to expand the sport;as did Mick Potter. https://www.therhinos.co.uk/2009/02/05/ ... er-league/ news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 300343.stm No mention of the international improvement/involvement/development...responsibility for one club side...

Quote ="Donnyman"[uI'm afraid it is[/u. Richard Lewis was highly vocal about the fact that to raise Rugby leagues profile we needed more top class international games. Therefore Catalans were invited into Superleague so they could give leading French players a pathway to professionalism and the French national side. The year after their inclusion France.v.Great Britain tests re-started accordingly. And no Catalans were not burdened with an instruction to be the French national side, only create a pathway for quality French RL players and aspiring young French players to reach the top. French players were just as welcome to go to St.Helens like Theo Farges did - quite a number of French lads have played in English sides. in 2006 Casty, Fellous, Mouinis, Rinaldi, Guisset, Frasayinous, Fakir, Bosc, Verges and Fellous Etc were regulars in the side. But Gausch had no interest in the French National side and as the years went by the French side suffered and the GB.v.France tests were pulled. That only spurred Gausch on to abandon any idea of growing French Pro-RL and creating a pathway for youngsters. He had run an academy but shut that down, and progressively he brought in English and Antipodean players in order to try to win himself cups, which he did with the Wembley final win. Buoyed by this he presided over a policy that didn't encourage French players anymore. gigot left, Maria and Simon were not played much. Albert and Morgue who were promising players didn't play at all towards the end of this season and French players like Seguire ,were sat on the bench for the full duration of games. What point there ever was to Catalans has disappeared....... Expansion they are not......'" I cannot find any quote from Richard Lewis similar to your assertion.Could you assist,please? He did seem to want to expand the sport;as did Mick Potter. https://www.therhinos.co.uk/2009/02/05/ ... er-league/ news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 300343.stm No mention of the international improvement/involvement/development...responsibility for one club side...

Yet the product still exists and is able to generate income. Good for the product. But the demise in the sport without a sugar daddy is looking considerably weaker.

You mean you don't want to find anything about Catalans being brought in to develop the French International side



[i"In 2005, UTC applied to join the Super League, the highest tier of professional rugby league in Europe. They were selected ahead of Toulouse Olympique and Villeneuve Leopards to enter the league for the 2006 season. The franchise was named Catalans Dragons; UTC remained in the French Championship to serve as a reserve club. The club set a target for[u 75% of the players be qualified to play for France[/u."[/i

This is straight from Catalans own club history as published on the internet

Right.So the club set their own target.No condition(s) set by the governing body on the parachuting into Super League.Ergo,no breach of any condition, or responsibility for the failure by the French governing body to appoint a decent head coach for the international side.
They can't even be blamed for the failings of one individual in Toronto.
Time for your focus to shift to New York and/or Ottawa.
PS - Newcastle Thunder have set a target of winning Super League by 2030.Should this fail to materialise, no overseas situated club is to blame.

They (Catalan) set "a target" of 75%.
Ok you're right lets kick 'em out



You love to blame Catalan (and Toronto) plus any other overseas clubs for the sport's failings over here.
It's time to look a lot closer to home.

The greed of the top clubs plus the inability of the sport to attract new fans and hang on to it's existing ones is the reason and I think you actually know this.
The game is also dying due to a lack of international profile.
I'm sure you can also remember the "promises" to build on the "success" of the last 2 world cups.

The total lack of support for International RL from Australia almost killed the international game off.
IIRC, Richard Lewis was instrumental in getting this moving again, with the 4 Nations and a return to a regular world cup.

Our international game is based around having 3 decent national sides, plus the recent emergence of Tonga but, so much of the international game is contrived through relaxed qualifying player criteria and the regular "flip flopping" of players, who change nationality with alarming regularity.

France is at least a genuine RL playing Nation, albeit with RL played in a small South West enclave but, lets kick their clubs out of any elite competition and consign them to amateur RL - yay

We should be finding ways to grow the game both in the UK and abroad and stop being so bloody insular.

Or, we could just bemoan the fact that the sport's profile gets ever smaller and that "we" cannot command a decent TV deal, something that is unlikely to increase in the foreseeable and wont happen until RL is deemed either a proper National or International sport.

If you say so

Once again it's not about me is it? It's really rather simple. Expansion requires new paying TV deals and player development. That's not my definition it is both Eric Perez's and Superleagues.

Expansion is not placing clubs in SL an [uexpanded distance[/u from the others and at the same time kicking out an English SL club?:

But some people think it is, remember when they all got excited by the idea of Perth (WA) coming into SL. Imagine if that happened and Wakefield Trinity were relegated so they could take their SL place, and Trinity shut their academy and Wakefield fans cancelled their SKY subs???

Now would you call that "expansion" of the professional game? if you would please explain it to me

Perth would be ludicrous but, let's not go there.

I actually agree with your point about not kicking out English clubs just to accommodate a newbie.
However, there should always be a plan to grow the game, if not, by very definition, we're going backwards and this has been lacking for decades.
However, even IF Catalan were replaced by an English club in SL, this would represent yet another failure by the sport of Rugby League and our past is absolutely littered with those.
There has to be a decent strategy to grow the game, increase interest, increase participation and IF we can be successful with that, increased TV revenue would come hand in hand with that success.

I dont see ANY plan for those things, do you ? and the game is currently dyeing slowly

There's always room for expansion in our game, as it is so small and played in such a small area any expansion is good. Even Toronto (which failed business wise) still managed to showcase our game to an extra 9,000 people who otherwise would never have played or watched RL. Even if 10 of those start following RL it's better than none. However expansion should be done right and build from the bottom.

Toronto was basically a a 'bought' entity. At least Catalans have produced players, played before SL inclusion as UTC and continue to have a steady support larger than some SL clubs. Toulouse have done it right, they have produced players, earned their stripes in the Championship and on the surface of it run a good business. Newcastle and York are the next two who are doing expansion right. Building from the bottom up. Good amateur game, good development and plying their trade at a lower level first.

If any of these teams were to go, especially Catalans, it would be such a bad look for the game. I'm all for strong heartlands clubs, without them, the game dies. But in order to grow and prosper as a sport we need to introduce it to new markets, new people and keep building outside the M62 corridor.

The French game produced the players.

Catalans job was to take the best on and give them a professional arena to develop further in, and a path to annual competitive test matches with England to develop into International quality players. Certainly Catalans did play senior French players and ran an academy to further develop junior French players.

But year on year England would hammer the French International side (a dozen times with an average score of 52-7) and Gausch seemed to lose any interest he had. The academy was shut, the Internationals abandoned and now we have a situation where Catalans first choice team no longer has any French lads in the first team with Casty gone and Yaha out of favour.

I know you say that removing them from SL would be a "bad look", but the fact is Toronto were chucked out recently and it doesn't seem to me anyone beyond the RL fans who crave "expansion" actually gave a monkeys. Catalans aren't much of a draw here either when it comes to the bulk of fans so I can't see anyone crying if an English club took their place.

But it's not the fans shout. It's Superleague chairmen's shout and most of them don't like Gausch.

Thanks for the post. I counted the "expansion" clubs that have come and gone since 1896 and I think the first real expansion club was south Shields over a hundred years ago. About 50 have come and gone and to be honest nobody really bats an eyelid anymore, and nobody is surprised. Few care apart from some on message boards..

Our very existence depends on clubs with histories going back to 1864. They are too often dismissed by so called expansionists but in such a tough climate for our game clubs like Wakefield with 140 years behind them will always be the bedrock of the game.

We have that strategy, anyone who wants a go, and has the money can enter the lower divisions.

We have that club Newcastle Thunder..........Rejoice

I don't see the game is dying? As I say many clubs are aged well over 100 years old and still going strong....

Around 1970 it looked to be dying as playing numbers dropped sharply and crowds also dropped sharply.

You must remember those days??

does that include Toulouse

I should have used the word 'structure' instead of 'set-up'. French RL is about clubs like Pia, St Gaudens, Carcassone, Limoux, Lezingnan...not Catalonia, who are just a newish national/regional entity, some say Catalonia is a nation, is Wales is a nation I'd say Catalonia is as well. So in NZ the true srtucture of NZ RL are clubs like Mt Albert and Otahuhu. the NZ Warriors don't play in a NZ RL competition, and the Catalonia Dragons don't play in a French RL comp.

IMO we should let them develop their own domestic league instead of just dropping a full-time team into Auckalnd and Perpignan. Having team like Toronto, Celtic Crusaders and PSG makes RL look so desperate. If areas of the world don't want to play or watch RL that's their problem, don't try and force RL onto people.

I'd be genuinely curious to see how many French players played top level RL before Catalans? Only one I can really think of was Maxime Grésèque. Couldn't name one PSG player without googling it. The 1996 squad had a few French in it, the 1997 squad was pretty much Aussies/English. Since Catalans I could name at least a full playing squad of French players. So what was the 'French Game' doing before Catalans? Not knocking it, as it will have produced many amateur/semi pro players and put rugby balls in kids hands (which is the main point).



The Catalans job is to be a successful rugby league club. That's the goal of any sporting team. To be successful. During our most successful era the majority of our skillful players were Aussie/NZ. In our 2001 GF we had 8 overseas players (Withers, Vaikona, Mackay, H. Paul, R. Paul, Vagana, Gartner and Rigon). 9 English players including 3 academy graduate players (Pryce, Peacock, Fielden). Catalans in their most successful year had 9 French players in their 17 for the 2018 Challenge Cup Final (Gigot, Yaha, Simon, Jullien, Garcia, Casty, Bousquet, Baitieri, Goudemand). So Catalans had the same French players, than we had English players.....and I'm sure that's the same for a lot of teams.

The problem is France in general do not have a huge player pool, so the quality will be limited. They severely lack in halves. It wasn't so bad when Bosc was around because he was great to be fair. Now they have Fages. It's not Catalans job to better the French team. It's Catalans job to make the players they have better and if that improves the French team then great. The French team on paper has a half decent 17.

Catalans academy was shut because they can't play our academies and the academies they could play over there wouldn't help the Catalans as they wouldn't be good tests. There's loads of logistical problems with this too. Cost of travel, the players are still in education and they'd need to travel Friday or before for a weekend game so they'd miss out. For Catalans it would be money down the drain. That's why they now use Saint-Estève XIII Catalan as a feeder club from Elite One. They've already had Morgue, Romano, Séguier, Perez from there and have used them to give Di Costa and Albert game time.



In all fairness the French team aren't on our level and they never will be with only 1 professional side and 1 semi-professional side to choose players from. Let's be honest, French RL isn't going to pick players from Pia Donkeys or Avignon. France in general are years behind us in RL. It was banned over there and playing habits changed. It's getting better though. France should be competing with the likes of Samoa, Fiji, Cook Islands etc. Not the likes of Australia, NZ, England. Do you have the same thoughts about Ireland, Scotland and Wales who are absolute sh*t and barely have any actual Welsh, Irish or Scottish playing for them? I do agree that Catalans should have a moral obligation to try bring more French talent through their ranks. I'm a Bulls fan and we pride ourselves on our youth system. In an ideal world every team would have as good a youth system as we do. But some see a different way to be successful.



Toronto were never liked anyway. They had a huge backer at the time and people got y about that. Okay, hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the time a lot of fans were complaining about the travel (well it was paid for), people were complaining about not developing Canadians (well some of their clubs don't produce players even though they've had 100+ years to perfect it), they complained about buying their way to SL (they worked up the leagues rather than being parachuted in like Widnes, Crusaders etc or 'saved' by the demise of another club like Wakefield). SL chairmen were worried that Toronto would eventually take their place. Imagine if say Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Salford went down instead of London? They never took a penny out of central funding either. But not one of the outcrys at the time were about a business model, or the financial state of the club. That only came much later.

Catalans don't need to be a draw here, we probably aren't much of a draw over there. As long as they are a draw in Perpignan which they are. They've had average crowds between 7-9k since moving to Stade Gilbert Brutus. With the most supported seasons being 2018 (9,806) and 2016 (9,764). They also took the game on the road to Camp Nou (31,555) which is the record for SL attendance. So as long as they keep doing that, they deserve to be in the top flight. That in itself could be an attractor for SKY too. In my opinion Catalan being in the competition is much better for the game as a whole.

The heartland clubs do need to strengthen and I do feel that a financially stable Bradford and Leigh would be great for SL and in a couple of years time York and Newcastle would be fantastic additions too if they keep doing the right things. At the moment those are the positives of the game.

Look, it feels like we are all going over the same ground over and over. We all have different opinions and we all interpret information in a different way, I'm assuming you're older as you referenced rugby in the 70's so I guess you were there, I'm 90's born so we are going to have different views on the game naturally anyway. So let's get back on topic and hopefully we can all be supporting our respective teams from the terracing soon. God knows I've missed the rugby!

The main reason I remember in 2005 ppl were saying Catalonia should be in SL was that they would improve the French national side like the NZ Warriors had, well that's a myth as NZ had at times a decent RL team in the 1980's. And as I suspected, Catalonia hasn't improved the French RL side.

Which people were saying this though? I think that was a question someone asked Donnyman. Was it SL who said this? The IRLF? Catalans themselves? French RL? Fans? All I know is that is wasn't part of the 'criteria' to allow Catalans into the SL. It might have been talked about in terms of a potential side benefit to having them in but it was mainly to have a French presence, French TV deal, French players, to really expand the game. And arguably they have done. There's more French players throughout the league and because of Catalans inclusion to SL there's now more eyes on clubs like Toulouse. There's more French coaches, albeit most are ex-players but by playing for Catalans it's given them the platform to coach.

I'd say French national side is in a slightly better state post 2006 than pre 2006. It's just that you see other nations progressing like Tonga but they have Aussies and NZ's playing for them who's 'heritage' is Tongan. France can only really chose French players. Until there is a couple of 'hotbeds' over there for RL (like there is here) then France only have a limited selection of players. In all fairness they won the 2018 European Championship to qualify for the World Cup too.

I've been trying to get a solid debate out of for ages but whenever you're asked the hard questions you disappear.

Super league has to grow the game which they successfully did in '06 who have also successfully stayed in the top flight for 14 years and given starts to so many Frenchmen who would not have gotten that opportunity without Catalan.

It was Elstone who ruined negotiating the new French deal and even with that setback were able to secure a free to air deal for the final games of the season, something you conveniently. So the absence of a tv deal has only been for a very small time of their existence.

As for international games, it is not their responsibility for the national team to be competitive. That is the governing bodies role of both England and France.

Do you blame the English clubs for their lack of competitiveness over the last 40 years against Australia?

Catalan were probably were introduced on the premise that their presence would boost the national side. Catalan job is to win footy games, winning the CC which gave great exposure to our game.

If you believe Catalan should be solely French, do you also believe that English clubs should stop signing the likes of Inglis, Coote, Hastings, Austin, Miller, Lolohea, Taia, Tuimavave, Mata'utia?

As for Toulouse they have a development team and system and in my opinion would be the best choice for team 12. What a boost to rl to have a couple French derbies each year which would inspire more French players in the years to come.

Lastly Catalan are one of the larger clubs commercially and one of few clubs which have grown attendance, including the largest super league crowd of 31k.

Keen to hear your rebuttal.

Sky, mainly on Boots 'n' All. But Catalonia is not expansion of RL.

I don't "Dissappear" and this comment is again more personal goading from you.

Gausch has serious money problems and you know it, and he continues to preside over a club that does not have a policy of developing French players, nor providing them with first team opportunities. Go on TRL and read Barnyia's posts about how French juniors are ignored and fringe French players only make the numbers up. Even if they get on the bench they get left there unless players are injured or tired. McIlorum tells the tale of how he'd feign tiredness to give French lads a chance.

My "opinion" for others as this isn't a private conversation, is that Gausch just wants to win games and that means not bothering with French players, and as for Toulouse if they go the nod they would strengthen by copying Catalans...

Lord help us if we are crazy enough to bring in a "French" Superleague derby where nobody on the field is French.....









Not to mention depleting the English TV deal we have by blocking English clubs from SL for that Charade over the channel......