For the purpose of this, lets put aside the top 5 or 6 clubs becuase they'll always be the top 5 or 6 and historically always have been and look at those below them.

So...



I'd disagree, there are adds and omits to the arguement but on the whole personally I disagree. The best part of SL this season was the odd game and the last fortnight. After that I found it pretty dull and of low standard which after 30 years watching the game leaves me asking why. Maybe I've just got bored of it!

But, the bottom half of SL are technically trading insolvent whilst the middle tier between SL and grassroots is totally on its backside.

The interest from both supporters and sponsors is next to dead at that level, apart from the GF even Sky can't be bothered showing it anymore. This leaves ambitious clubs with little chance of building a platform and average clubs linking up with bugger SL clubs as a cheap way of making their squad numbers up. Given it's in many instances the foundation to top flight RL, it's foolish to ignore it's predicament.



So happens when the gravy runs out? Not just Cas (apologies Cas fans for using you as an example!), we could list half a dozen others. We're trying to get financial stability in the game, you more than anyone beat the drum about clubs being better managed thus warranting their place in SL. By your own admission here, that's clearly not happening and defeats the whole object of it all.



That's the whole point, inversely, they (and others) are not competing as it is so what's lost? Sometimes what is spent does not equal value for money.

I'm not convinced if they cut their spending by (say) 40% that it would necesarily result in a 40% drop in standards. For example, Championship wages have halved over the last couple of years but the players are still there. After Uncle Des stopped throwing silly money about at Barrow, Steve O'Connor and a few others got together and said this has to stop.

Now we have the likes of Leigh, Fev, Fax keeping their spending at more realistic levels so what we dont have now is an abundance of part time players/Aussies/journeymen earning £30k a year, average salaries are now at less than £10k. The same players are still playing aided and abetted by dual contracts and loans.

Would it not go the same in the mid to lower levels of SL, where very average players dont earn the £40-60k they are now (as quoted by Sean Long at a recent event) but earn more realistic salaries?

It's a bit of tough love granted, but something has to be done. With it, the morbid/joyous interest generated by P&R is there, Sky remain there, competitive derbies still exist, pro rugby still exists, the big clubs are still there, and financial stability has a greater chance of prevailing.



From memory, as well as taking over 10000 to Headingley for the GF, Cas had just as many (if not more) watching them in the Championship (regular crowds of 6, 7000) than they did last season so I'm not convinced on that one. Then again, P&R existed



Rather than have a huge gap, why not a medium fish in a medium pond? We're not on about sending them to SL2 oblivion, we're on about having them (and those like them) competing in the top 3rd of SL2 and bottom 3rd of SL1, a band of clubs numbering maybe 8 or 9 (ok, on showings over the last few years lets list Cas, Salford, Wakey, HKR, Widnes, London, Fev, Fax, Leigh) who with a kick and a push would not be too far adrift of each other [iif[/i the financial playing field was level(ish). A situation where a good coach, youth set up, star player here or there makes the difference between being the best of this lot and the worst, and not a club hanging onto the shirtails of others and still needing an unstainable third party cash injection.

Then, when a club gets promoted the gap between them and bottom of SL1 isn't as huge as it is (and has been in the past) but at the same time neither is the financial risk in getting there or indeed falling from there.

The gap then from the top of this band isn't too far from the bottom of the uppermost band, they've reached that touching distance organically rather than overspending money they have not got in the first place which is what they need to do now.

But this has always been the case hasnt it. When has the 2nd tier of RL ever enjoyed high attendances or paid for, realistic tv broadcast?

Sky can't be bothered to show it, and wont be bothered to show it under an SL2 banner. There isnt a huge amount we can do about that. In the main, Sky dont care about lower league sport.


There will be, and is right now, rationalisation. It may be that Cas cannot be an SL club, they may go pop I said a few years ago, I very much doubted that Cas would be in SL in 2015. I cant see how they can build their market to the requisite level. They are a small town team, surrounded by bigger clubs with bigger markets. I think in the next few years Cas will be one of those clubs to be lost (as an SL club) in that rationalisation. So what happens when the gravy train stops, Cas will likely take a step down. Now that is what I think will happen. I don’t know that is what will happen, and I would be happy to see Cas prove me wrong. What I do know is their best chance of doing so, in fact their only chance of doing so is with the absence of P+R. That’s the truth of it. The absence of P+R gives them a chance if they are well run, if they aren’t (and possibly, sadly, even if they are) then they wont succeed.

Its not necessarily a ‘drop in standards’ but revenue. On a pure commercial basis, Cas’ stadium, costs and most back office costs will be pretty much the same. Cutting back on coaches and youth development employees is something of a false economy (and not what we want as a game). The only major saving for Cas (and it is major one), will be players. For it to make sense, it is necessary that the savings Cas can make in players wages, is greater than the losses they make on lower attendances, sponsors, corporates etc. That’s where the idea falls down, its where the idea loses any credibility, because there is no reason to assume that Cas’ would be more profitable, or sustainable as a successful 2nd tier side than a struggling top tier side.

Yet the argument is that these clubs are being left behind by the SL clubs. This will only be exacerbated in a 2 SL system. Cas would be further away from being a top SL club by being a top SL2 club than a struggling SL club.

The morbid interest in P+R is a myth, look at the attendances for clubs who are relegated, their attendances throughout the season are uniformly awful. When we had the £1m game between Cas and Wakefield we had circumstances conspire to put everything in our favour, we had two local rivals, coming down to the last games of the season winner takes all in front of a packed house. Unfortunately prior to that packed house, that one isolated well attended game, we had an entire year of terrible rugby, played by overseas journeymen, in front of empty stadiums.
Whilst I don’t have the figures for Cas to hand, it clearly wasn’t the case for Widnes or HKR, or even Fax.
That’s the thing though, the gap between the lower part of SL wouldn’t be smaller, it would be much bigger. The promoted team doesn’t need to be better than the 14th best SL side, it needs to be better than the 10th SL side just to stay up. Whilst 6 championship clubs would get some more money, 4 SL clubs would be getting massively less. The 6 championship clubs may be a bit closer, but the 4 SL clubs would be much further away. If everything you state would happen happens, and the best case scenario happened, the fact is that SL2 clubs would be further away from being an SL club than they are even now.

A lot about Cas there which in fairness I dont think either of us intended to use as a specific reason to reinvent the future of SL. I used them as an 'average to good' SL side but it could easily have been others.

Moving on...

I dont think either of us can say catagorically what would or would not happen if it did or did not happen so to save another eleventy seven pages, and repeat the same things for the next month its best leaving it there.

What is relevant is the current SL format was meant (among many other things) to create financial stability.

It hasn't, far from it, and as long as the bottom half of it are overspending someone elses money to keep up with the top half then it will only get worse.

How would you fix that?

The only thing of relevance there is the 1 that doesn't exist any more. The rest, well, somebody lost money, but hey, that's sport investing for you. Doesn't seem to have deterred rich people wanting to give it a shot. Whereas in our wonderful franchise system money is flooding into the like of Salford. Safe from relegation they're an amazing investment, surely?

I agree, it could unfortunately apply to other clubs in the same way

As an absolute, no it hasn’t ‘created financial stability’ but as has been said, there is no silver bullet. It was put there to create a more stable environment, everything else is up to the clubs. And I think it has and will continue to do so, and nobody has yet suggested a system which would do it better.

As to what I would do to fix it, there isn’t anything we can do other than try and create some virtuous cycles to build our way out of it and I think we are on the right track to get there.

A few fairly minor changes

I think giving all clubs an perpetual licence is the first step. Putting HKR, Cas, Wakefield, Bradford, London and Salford ‘on notice’ would be the next step. Giving them real and achievable targets for the next 2 years, then the two years after that, and then for the next 5 years, and the 5 years after that etc. etc, as long as they hit these targets they stay in, if they don’t they will be dropped, let them know this. Publicly.

Then remove the link between promotion and relegation. If there is a new Leeds/Wigan/Warrington/Sts/Hull etc in the lower leagues, get them in, don’t wait for someone else to fail get them in when they are ready. Give them 2 years prep time and bring them in.

Aim to drop no-one, aim to expand SL. It sounds harsh, but we as a game, cant afford a pro 2nd tier, we have so many other priorities that unless Bill Gates wants to pump hundreds of millions in, then we will never get enough right to start worrying about it. If clubs in the lower league want to be SL clubs, they can. Make yourself a club ready for SL. But we need to accept some clubs aren’t capable of doing that. So we say fine, we will expand SL in 2016. In 2014 we will tell you who. Everyone is on notice, we will admit 2 more teams in 2014 to start in 2016, make yourself the best you can be and it might be you. Then in 2016, aim to expand to 18 in 2020, and 20 in 2024.

Lastly, the obvious one, improve marketing and presentation of the game.

Read that through again and notice the obvious flaw in your plan

Ok, interesting...

I'll play ball with that.

How would you suggest a club in a league that has minimal TV exposure and sponsoring/corporate opportunites to feed upon be able to prove their worth sufficient to be given the 2 year 'notice'?

You're not allowed to use 'rich benefactor' either.

I think that is individual to each club. I think there are obvious questions to be asked which are different for every club. Leigh and Fev for example would need to answer how they are going to differentiate themselves in such an obviously crowded market place. Fax would have slightly less to prove in that respect, but Halifax is still a fairly small area, they would need to show how they will attract people from the wider area that isn’t cannibalising the markets of Hudds and Bradford.

A team like Sheffield however wouldn’t need to really say anything about that. They would need to focus on how they could spread the visibility of the game in Sheffield and how they can tap in to the relatively huge market they have when they don’t have a history of doing it. They would also have more to prove from a financial side of things as there crowds are lower now.

Toulouse on the other hand would have slightly less to prove in regards to how they are going to tap in to the market as they are an established club, with good links to the local community, but they need to prove that they can get the pathways in place to bring through enough French players to make it worth while, but they may be able to simply walk in the door, show a broadcast contract from BeIn sports worth £10m a year which is there for the taking if there are 2 french teams in SL, something Leigh, Fev, Fax etc cant do.

If the clubs can’t do that, well sadly they wont be promoted.

You need to learn the differece between a demonstrable fact and an opinion

So you only want clubs entering SL, when they are ready, but you say admit teams every 4 years? , but also if current clubs dont hit ' targets ' , they drop out?

How will promotion and relegation work, if it dos happen and when it starts, say if Catalan, Leeds, Warrington, Wigan, Hull F.C. London, Huddersfield ( & Bradford, who SL, can't do with out as we are told) finish bottom, ware would P&R, come in then, the first thing the RFL will do is come out with a statement, saying we cannot afford to relegate these teams so your back to square one the only time a team will go down to SL2, or the new championship, is when one of the other three teams finish bottom,it might sound like sower grapes, but we all now haw it works in rugby league.

It sounds like sour grapes because it IS sour grapes. Get the chip off your shoulder.

That is actually the point, a club like the ones you mention could drop down a division if the gap isnt too big, and they would be replaced by a much better prepared club

Currently as the Bradford ' situation ' showed, once Toulouse turned the RFL down, there was no viable alternative, which in itself shows the weakness of the whole sport

No chip, the only people with the chips on there shoulder are the ones who now they are safe and sod he rest, like your team, poach the young talent for yourself, and get the monk on when a bigger team takes a youngster from the hull academy the biggest part of your team are Cas & Fev lads made up with antipodeans but not many Hull lads, but then again i have a chip because the truth hurts . when the new boss you have gets fed up he will be off and you might be the next SL2 team

Castleford themselves have spoken of the damage done to them by relegation. In fact in the context of licensing Richard Wright said[i Castleford have been involved in relegation and promotion for the last four years, so we have very good first-hand knowledge of how destabilising it is.
It is a bit of a rollercoaster and difficult to get off. When you are relegated there is a big impact on finances and it very difficult to plan for the long-term future of the club.

Relegation is a massive obstacle. It is hard enough to grow your business in the first place[/i

talking about relegation he said [i"The loss to Castleford is impossible to quantify," Richard Wright, the Castleford chief executive, said. "Financially the loss of £800,000 from TV rights was only the starting point. Players had to leave the club and others had to accept pay cuts. Even worse is the effect on the club itself and our fans. Yet this injustice could have been avoided."[/i

It was a fact, i demonstrated it. That is the difference.

No, i said aim to do it. It would be SL aiming to be ready to get two new teams in those years, and those clubs aiming to be ready for those years. If either arent ready, it doesnt happen. If both are ready at a different time we can. It is pretty simple Yes. Im pretty sure i explained that we should remove the link between promotion and relegation, in fact i said we should [iThen remove the link between promotion and relegation[/i i dont know why you are now linking them again.

No it isnt a fact, Cas were relegated into a part time competition, a 2 pt SL would be different, so it is just your opinion

May be different, if you are being consistent. You dont know it would be different, it is just your opinion



regardless, i think you still need to look up what the difference between a demonstrable fact is and what an opinion is because it still doesnt seem to have sunk in.

It was fact, We could prove it. We could prove it cos Cas told us so. Cas told us the damage relegation did to them. They told us they were better struggling at the bottom of SL than competing at the top of a lower league.

If you want to invent an imaginary scenario where in the future where everything is different, go ahead. Your imaginary world and the imaginary proof therein have no effect on the real world, which exists, where Cas have told us that it is [ibetter financially, at the moment, as the little fish in a big pond than they would be as a bigger fish in a small pond.[/i

So following this you could end up with an 8 team SL after 2 years

Yes it is my opinion, but going from a full time comp with a million pounds SKY funding to a part time comp with less than 100 K funding would be worse than dropping from the aforementioned FT comp with a million pounds to a still FT comp with potentially 600 K funding

And as Cas have never done that, any opinion they have on the subject would be subjective, much like an opinion

Theoretically, but very very unlikely.

Depends what targets you set

Yes, Cas have never done that scenario you have made up in your head where we are massively cutting the SL grant and plucking numbers out of our s for imaginary grants for an imaginary league, you are right.

But then I didnt say there isnt a situation you could imagine where Cas wouldnt be more profitable in an imaginary league you invent on the spot, I said they were [ibetter financially, at the moment, as the little fish in a big pond than they would be as a bigger fish in a small pond.[/i Which they have told us is the case.

Considering the would be [i real and achievable targets for the next 2 years[/i, it would be very unlikely for all of those clubs to miss targets that were deliberately achievable to a level which required their removal from the league.

No mention of fish or ponds in that Richard Wright quote, just rollercoasters, which some people enjoy