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| If I ran a National League club I would offer reduced price tickets for supporters of any SL club on production of their current SL season ticket. Encouraging new (even if transient) supporters, I think, is far better than attracting no new supporters. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"If I ran a National League club I would offer reduced price tickets for supporters of any SL club on production of their current SL season ticket. Encouraging new (even if transient) supporters, I think, is far better than attracting no new supporters. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.'"
100% agree.
I posted something a while back about SL clubs offering a 99 quid add on to their ST's that would let their fans gain access to any CH, CH1, CH2 games......with the entire 99 quid going into a pool to be shared by all the teams in those divisions.
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| Quote ="af"What evidence have you got that Bradford residents are loyaler than those outside the city boundaries. Could be true but it's far from a given.'"
Of course I can't prove it, but going back 10 years or so I spent a lot of time in Pudsey and Drighlington and there would be Bulls shirts, car stickers, stickers in windows etc all over the place. Nowadays it's a different picture, Leeds woke up and now those areas reflect that.
Slightly differently I always remember lots of kids at school supporting Liverpool, Everton and Man Utd, and giving those of us who were City fans all kinds of grief, it's amazing to find out how many of them are now City fans, as they've got older they increasingly come to identify their team, and culturally sports support in this country has always been tribal. Back in the late 90's my younger brother played RL for Rodley and, at the time, most of the team were Bulls fans - a couple of them I still loosely know are now Leeds fans, after all that's the city they are from and that's the team representing their city.
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| Quote ="gutterfax"100% agree.
I posted something a while back about SL clubs offering a 99 quid add on to their ST's that would let their fans gain access to any CH, CH1, CH2 games......with the entire 99 quid going into a pool to be shared by all the teams in those divisions.'"
These are the kinds of things I think the RFL should be looking into (and maybe something like this will come from the KTP partnership they are now involved in) because I think individual clubs need to stop viewing other clubs as competitors (apart from on field) and look at ways that RL clubs can collaborate for the benefit of all.
Finances are tight in SL let alone the National Leagues so why don't for example, a group of National League clubs (who individually may not be able to afford a marketing manager say) get together and employ one to work for the group?
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"These are the kinds of things I think the RFL should be looking into (and maybe something like this will come from the KTP partnership they are now involved in) because I think individual clubs need to stop viewing other clubs as competitors (apart from on field) and look at ways that RL clubs can collaborate for the benefit of all.
Finances are tight in SL let alone the National Leagues so why don't for example, a group of National League clubs (who individually may not be able to afford a marketing manager say) get together and employ one to work for the group?'"
It isn't a marketing manager , it is ' troops ' on the ground and a budget to work with
As for competitors , the Championship clubs biggest competitors are SL clubs and football clubs , so tell me why we would want to ' work ' with them ?
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| Quote ="Starbug"It isn't a marketing manager , it is ' troops ' on the ground and a budget to work with '"
Manager or troops on the ground the principle remains.
Quote ="Starbug"As for competitors , the Championship clubs biggest competitors are SL clubs and football clubs , so tell me why we would want to ' work ' with them ?'"
I believe that despite the apparent paradox to a Western business mind set, even "competitors" can work collaboratively for the benefit of all in an industry. One example is the major mobile phone manufacturers now getting together to agree on a standard charger so any phone can be used with any charger. This will reduce costs of R&D in each company and with one standard charger production costs will fall benefiting businesses and the consumer.
The areas of mutual benefit in RL may not be so obvious but I believe that they are there if the people that run the clubs and the sport can see that their compeition does not come from the nearest RL club (SL or otherwise) but from football, Rugby Union, the cinema, theatre, the pub, concerts, tennis and whatever else people choose to spend their leisure £s on.
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"Manager or troops on the ground the principle remains.
I believe that despite the apparent paradox to a Western business mind set, even "competitors" can work collaboratively for the benefit of all in an industry. One example is the major mobile phone manufacturers now getting together to agree on a standard charger so any phone can be used with any charger. This will reduce costs of R&D in each company and with one standard charger production costs will fall benefiting businesses and the consumer.
The areas of mutual benefit in RL may not be so obvious but I believe that they are there if the people that run the clubs and the sport can see that their compeition does not come from the nearest RL club (SL or otherwise) but from football, Rugby Union, the cinema, theatre, the pub, concerts, tennis and whatever else people choose to spend their leisure £s on.'"
Sorry bill you are wrong , a Championship clubs biggest competitor is the nearest SL club , the Championship clubs however should be working together
SL is the ' enemy ' of every Championship club and fan
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| Quote ="Starbug"Sorry bill you are wrong , a Championship clubs biggest competitor is the nearest SL club , the Championship clubs however should be working together
SL is the ' enemy ' of every Championship club and fan'"
It's perhaps a "leap of faith" but I think there are at least two facts which support my view:
1. Harlequins are the only SL club in London (or near London) why are they not playing to a packed house evey other week? Because the competition is not from RL therefore there must, by definition, be competition that does not originate in RL and huge competition at that.
2. In every case where a Championship side gets promoted their fans base swells hugely. This is not (to my knowledge) met with a corresponding decrease in support for the nearby SL clubs (in fact when Hull KR got promoted Hull FC's average crowd went up). Therefore those fans are there but are not going to any game Championship or SL.
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| Quote ="Starbug"Sorry bill you are wrong , a Championship clubs biggest competitor is the nearest SL club , the Championship clubs however should be working together
SL is the ' enemy ' of every Championship club and fan'"
I'd have thought apathy to be a far worse enemy.
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| Quote ="Richie"I'd have thought apathy to be a far worse enemy.'"
Of course it is.
The Luddites would rather a residents of "their area" went to NO games than to the games of another club.
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| Quote ="Asim"Of course I can't prove it, but going back 10 years or so I spent a lot of time in Pudsey and Drighlington and there would be Bulls shirts, car stickers, stickers in windows etc all over the place. Nowadays it's a different picture, Leeds woke up and now those areas reflect that.
Slightly differently I always remember lots of kids at school supporting Liverpool, Everton and Man Utd, and giving those of us who were City fans all kinds of grief, it's amazing to find out how many of them are now City fans, as they've got older they increasingly come to identify their team, and culturally sports support in this country has always been tribal. Back in the late 90's my younger brother played RL for Rodley and, at the time, most of the team were Bulls fans - a couple of them I still loosely know are now Leeds fans, after all that's the city they are from and that's the team representing their city.'"
Not expecting you to have excel documents but you have to take my point that however disloyal Pudseyites are, I'm pretty sure the people of Bradford can match them in the 'can't be .rsed to go watch that rubbish' stakes.
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| Didn't Keighley just steal all their ideas from Eddie Waring?
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| Quote ="Richie"...... a poorly thought out and quickly shot down argument about franchising being protectionism....'"
Your arguments about protectionism (and every thing else) are your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to, but I don’t actually view you as the arbiter of what is right or wrong.
The franchise system as it stands is a form of protectionism – that’s the whole reason it was devised – to give those clubs in it protection from relegation whilst they built a stable business. The fact that some clubs have been unable to do this and therefore risk relegation is down to their poor management of the situation. If new stadia had been built as promised, if crowds had flocked in to see them and if new major sponsors and financial stability had been achieved do you seriously think they would be relegated?
The RL promised to promote a championship club (if they met the criteria) but I’m pretty certain that they would have found a reason to expand the league and keep successful teams rather than relegation.
Relegation within the franchise system was a threat (of the big stick variety) with the sole aim of bringing clubs into line and telling them that if they promise something then they had better deliver – or else. As someone has already pointed out, the fact that one of the criteria is proximity to existing clubs is in itself a degree of protectionism.
I am not a complete fan of franchising but I agree that something had to be done to save our game.
I still can't see how you can sensibly call the previous league system with P&R "protectionism"
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| Quote ="Richie"What I saw within all that, I felt, was a mistaken belief from you that Keighley somehow somewhere led the way in sports marketing. '"
Here you go again. Where I have said or implied that Keighley led the way in sports marketing?
Cougarmania was more than just razmataz and cheerleaders. At its heart was community involvement including working with schools, setting up the much praised and publicised Cougar Classroom and drug education. Not all of it was original to sport, but the way the whole package was applied to RL was.
We gained recognition in the national press and with senior politicians – If I recall even the PM of the time passed favourable comment.
We moved from bottom of Div 3 with a fan base of a couple of hundred and crumbling terraces to champions with an average crowd of i think around 4000 and a complete ground renovation.
We took 25 coaches with 1000+ schoolchildren to Wembly.
Now that’s not bad for a small town “minnow”.
Oh, and I’m sure that all the clubs that came to see what we were doing actually said “It’s all well and good but I think we’ll copy Leeds Cougars instead.
To claim that Keighley invented "everything" would be naive at best as would claiming they did not in some way change Rugby league.
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| Quote ="af"This is a total myth. '"
I don't agree that it was a total Myth, it is however probably true that he became the "hate figure" for all Keighleys misfortunes. - I remember reading his (supposed) comments in the press. Now the press may have fanned the embers for their own ends but I would have thought that if he had been misquoted he would have demanded a retraction.
It might be difficult to find a direct quote now I can only point to this from a Keighley director [i"I remember Bradford coming to Keighley and their chairman, Chris Caisley, complaining about how disgraceful it all was - and look at them now."[/i
This statement was included in the Hansard debate (an interesting read from a historical point of view)
[i"now and again, there is a need to step out of Cougarland, put your feet on the ground, and get into the real world." [/i
I just used to have this "Spitting Image" type view of a Giant Murdoch sat with a Caisley dummy on one knee and Lindsey on the other
Quote Caisley praised Cougarmania but said the directors let themselves down in negotiations'" .
I can quite imagine someone like Caisley not getting on with Mike Smith and Mick O'Niel. However, Mr Caisley is not necessarily the best example to set when it comes to negotiation skills - see G Hetherington and I Harris and some of the public statements he made at the time.
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| Slightly off-topic but was it Batley who brought in American Football-style goalposts?
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| Quote ="Dreamer"Here you go again. Where I have said or implied that Keighley led the way in sports marketing?
Cougarmania was more than just razmataz and cheerleaders. At its heart was community involvement including working with schools, setting up the much praised and publicised Cougar Classroom and drug education. Not all of it was original to sport, but the way the whole package was applied to RL was.
We gained recognition in the national press and with senior politicians – If I recall even the PM of the time passed favourable comment.
We moved from bottom of Div 3 with a fan base of a couple of hundred and crumbling terraces to champions with an average crowd of i think around 4000 and a complete ground renovation.
We took 25 coaches with 1000+ schoolchildren to Wembly.
Now that’s not bad for a small town “minnow”.
Oh, and I’m sure that all the clubs that came to see what we were doing actually said “It’s all well and good but I think we’ll copy Leeds Cougars instead.
To claim that Keighley invented "everything" would be naive at best as would claiming they did not in some way change Rugby league.'"
So are you just claiming Keighley did some work in schools and got some press and politician recognition, and got promoted increased crowds and upgraded the stadium, and took some kids to Wembley? Nothing to dispute there.
Or are you claiming there was some influence on other RL Clubs?
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| Quote ="Dreamer"
I still can't see how you can sensibly call the previous league system with P&R "protectionism"'"
Why not? It was just different criteria and a different time frame.
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| Quote ="Urmston Wire"Slightly off-topic but was it Batley who brought in American Football-style goalposts?'"
I remember seeing them somewhere, not sure if it was Hunslet?
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| Quote ="Richie"So are you just claiming Keighley did some work in schools and got some press and politician recognition, and got promoted increased crowds and upgraded the stadium, and took some kids to Wembley? Nothing to dispute there.
Or are you claiming there was some influence on other RL Clubs?'"
Once again it appears you did not read what I said. The last line of my reply to you was:
Quote ="Dreamer"To claim that Keighley invented "everything" would be naive at best as would claiming they did not in some way change Rugby league'"
I am indeed claiming that they influenced other RL clubs, as some of the other posters on this thread have also recognised. That other RL clubs were also influenced by other clubs and sports is also without doubt.
In my opinion, claiming that Keighley had no effect on what came later is like the Americans claiming that their ideas for space flight came only from Chinese fireworks, Jules Verne, Sir William Congrieve and Robert Goddard, and that those nasty German WWII scientists had no influence whatsoever.
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| Quote ="Dreamer"I remember seeing them somewhere, not sure if it was Hunslet?'"
It was. Not sure how they got away with it.
The move out of the field of play, and then to a single post, were both safety measures in american football.
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| Quote ="Richie"icon_confused.gif Why not? It was just different criteria and a different time frame.'"
Yes I agree they were different.
The old structure was simply a season long cycle of events that allowed each team to play each other such that a fair winner by means of results could be established. The winning team in each division was rewarded by promotion to a higher but tougher division where potential income was greater but so were the costs. So unless you are saying that this structure did not allow mid season movement between divisions then I'm not sure how it can be called protectionist.
The problem with the above system was that those teams that tried to buy success and failed usually went bust and some teams just seemed to yo yo between divisions and then boom and bust. Not good for the teams, not good for the image of the game. The RL solution to this boom and bust scenario was to introduce a franchising system that would give clubs stability and PROTECTION over a number of playing seasons so that they had more time to produce a sustainable business without the fear of relegation.
Is it right or wrong? Well it does not appear to be right just yet.
Is it protectionism? Well thats a firm YES.
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| Quote ="Richie"It was. Not sure how they got away with it.'"
The laws of the game (at the time at least) explicitly said that such posts were allowed and that they did not have to be 'H' shaped.
I vaguely remember that New Hunslet had to use them because of something about the greyhound stadium - maybe they were quicker to put up and take down? I think the posts were metal, rather than wood, too.
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| Quote ="Richie"icon_confused.gif Why not? It was just different criteria and a different time frame.'"
But no location criteria , where's now there is , hence protectionism
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| Quote ="Dreamer"Yes I agree they were different.
The problem with the above system was that those teams that tried to buy success and failed usually went bust and some teams just seemed to yo yo between divisions and then boom and bust. Not good for the teams, not good for the image of the game. The RL solution to this boom and bust scenario was to introduce a franchising system that would give clubs stability and PROTECTION over a number of playing seasons so that they had more time to produce a sustainable business without the fear of relegation.
Is it right or wrong? Well it does not appear to be right just yet.
Is it protectionism? Well thats a firm YES.'"
Which clubs have ' yo yo'd ' and gone bust ?
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