French RL is semi-professional. I read a couple of months ago that there's less money in French RL now than 20 yrs ago. Suppose that's due to the 2008 GFC, if it's true. England have a really good RL team who could win the WC, France don't, England has a full-time RL set-up across the clubs, France does not. It's therefore far less likely for the best English RL talent to go to Union, I don't care if they change RL clubs or go to the NRL, as long as they stay in RL.

Also France is still traumatised by WWII.

I think you are well wide of the mark. I see Catalans as a 'real' team with history, and a good sized loyal fanbase that attend because they love RL not due to unsustainable cheap or free tickets.

Yes the travel means they won't ever take the largest crowd to Wembley, but the issue with Cup final crowds is the decline in neutral crowds. No team in SL can sell 45k tickets each to sell the place out, most struggle to shift 20k, neutrals are key and they have lost interest over the last 10 years or so (multiple reasons, scheduling on a Bank Holiday with poor travel options, loss of social clubs, amateur teams and who all used to fill a coach, launch of the Magic Weekend as an alternative RL weekend away)

I would like to see more French players come through, but they have to remain competitive and that means established British or Anz players are often a better option.

I would agree the French National Team haven't progressed, but that seems to be due to a lack of competitive games and some odd coaching choices (several British coaches with no links to France and not fluent in the language) it is not Catalans responsibility to fix the National side.

Well, for starters.

Expanding the footprint of professional RL
Excellent facilities and decent crowds
Attracted the largest attendance for any regular SL game (outside of Magic Weekend).
Attracting some star signings - Folou, although loved and hated in equal measure is certainly a world class player
First no English club to win a major RL Trophy
Somewhere different to watch SL

I too could go on but, it would probably be wasting my breath

IF RL was brave enough, just imagine what magic would be like held in the Camp Nou.

I know that Bradford aren't in SL (yet) but, Barcelona would be a fantastic place to go for the weekend and watch a major rl event and it would do more for the sport than staging the event in Manchester but, RL lacks ambition.
Certainly if Toulouse were to get the "golden ticket", a "Magic" event in Catalonia or France would be superb -covid permitting, of course

I'm not sure that Catalan (or Toulouse) are semi pro ??
As for less money in the sport over there, I'll take your word for it but, the same could probably be said for RL in the UK too.
It certainly looks like there will be less cash swilling around after the next TV deal.
Your comment about French players being more likely to go to Union is crazy.
If there were no professional RL players in France, any player wanting to make a living in "rugby" would have to go to Union to make a living and you seem to be advocating this ??

"Traumatised by WW11" and yet it is you who wants to wave the white flag for them


Btw, that's a shocking comment and not relevant to this chat, in any way, shape or form. Quite appalling.

This. Its not like the other clubs are producing quality players. Very far from it.

How anyone can claim with a straight face the profile of the competition has got worse due to Catalan I have no idea? Does one seriously think replacing Catalan with some northern town is suddenly going to raise profile of SL lol?

The profile has gotten worse as the competition has got worse year on year. The best players leave the competition but that's nothing to do with Catalan.

Catalonia and Toulouse are in the British system, Catalonia are in the British SL, like the NZ Warriors are in the Aussie RL comp. European SL? Hahahahahaha, do me a favour.

Then either yes or no, players are developed through St Esteve to play for Catalans. I’m presuming that encourages community youth development. They may do it a different way but the outcome is still the same.

So, you take out the 2 professional clubs that compete in SL and The Championship and declare the rest as non professional


Why not go the whole hog and take out the English Clubs in those leagues and say that the game over here is the same.

The fact is that Catalan and Toulouse pay their players, hence, they are professional RL clubs in France.

[uI'm afraid it is[/u. Richard Lewis was highly vocal about the fact that to raise Rugby leagues profile we needed more top class international games. Therefore Catalans were invited into Superleague so they could give leading French players a pathway to professionalism and the French national side. The year after their inclusion France.v.Great Britain tests re-started accordingly.

And no Catalans were not burdened with an instruction to be the French national side, only create a pathway for quality French RL players and aspiring young French players to reach the top. French players were just as welcome to go to St.Helens like Theo Farges did - quite a number of French lads have played in English sides.

in 2006 Casty, Fellous, Mouinis, Rinaldi, Guisset, Frasayinous, Fakir, Bosc, Verges and Fellous Etc were regulars in the side.

But Gausch had no interest in the French National side and as the years went by the French side suffered and the GB.v.France tests were pulled.

That only spurred Gausch on to abandon any idea of growing French Pro-RL and creating a pathway for youngsters. He had run an academy but shut that down, and progressively he brought in English and Antipodean players in order to try to win himself cups, which he did with the Wembley final win.

Buoyed by this he presided over a policy that didn't encourage French players anymore. gigot left, Maria and Simon were not played much. Albert and Morgue who were promising players didn't play at all towards the end of this season and French players like Seguire ,were sat on the bench for the full duration of games.

What point there ever was to Catalans has disappeared....... Expansion they are not......

Nor have I but their entry was not to "raise the profile of SL" it was to raise the profile of French International RL see above.......

***checks thread, sees its still the same Dragons bashing***


***moves back to own forum***

(Genuinely sincere comment)
Please feel free to point out any / all inaccuracies. I am quite sure there will be a good number who will appreciate this.

So, no professional RL in New Zealand either

Quote ="Donnyman"[uI'm afraid it is[/u. Richard Lewis was highly vocal about the fact that to raise Rugby leagues profile we needed more top class international games. Therefore Catalans were invited into Superleague so they could give leading French players a pathway to professionalism and the French national side. The year after their inclusion France.v.Great Britain tests re-started accordingly. And no Catalans were not burdened with an instruction to be the French national side, only create a pathway for quality French RL players and aspiring young French players to reach the top. French players were just as welcome to go to St.Helens like Theo Farges did - quite a number of French lads have played in English sides. in 2006 Casty, Fellous, Mouinis, Rinaldi, Guisset, Frasayinous, Fakir, Bosc, Verges and Fellous Etc were regulars in the side. But Gausch had no interest in the French National side and as the years went by the French side suffered and the GB.v.France tests were pulled. That only spurred Gausch on to abandon any idea of growing French Pro-RL and creating a pathway for youngsters. He had run an academy but shut that down, and progressively he brought in English and Antipodean players in order to try to win himself cups, which he did with the Wembley final win. Buoyed by this he presided over a policy that didn't encourage French players anymore. gigot left, Maria and Simon were not played much. Albert and Morgue who were promising players didn't play at all towards the end of this season and French players like Seguire ,were sat on the bench for the full duration of games. What point there ever was to Catalans has disappeared....... Expansion they are not......'" I cannot find any quote from Richard Lewis similar to your assertion.Could you assist,please? He did seem to want to expand the sport;as did Mick Potter. https://www.therhinos.co.uk/2009/02/05/ ... er-league/ news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 300343.stm No mention of the international improvement/involvement/development...responsibility for one club side...

Quote ="Donnyman"[uI'm afraid it is[/u. Richard Lewis was highly vocal about the fact that to raise Rugby leagues profile we needed more top class international games. Therefore Catalans were invited into Superleague so they could give leading French players a pathway to professionalism and the French national side. The year after their inclusion France.v.Great Britain tests re-started accordingly. And no Catalans were not burdened with an instruction to be the French national side, only create a pathway for quality French RL players and aspiring young French players to reach the top. French players were just as welcome to go to St.Helens like Theo Farges did - quite a number of French lads have played in English sides. in 2006 Casty, Fellous, Mouinis, Rinaldi, Guisset, Frasayinous, Fakir, Bosc, Verges and Fellous Etc were regulars in the side. But Gausch had no interest in the French National side and as the years went by the French side suffered and the GB.v.France tests were pulled. That only spurred Gausch on to abandon any idea of growing French Pro-RL and creating a pathway for youngsters. He had run an academy but shut that down, and progressively he brought in English and Antipodean players in order to try to win himself cups, which he did with the Wembley final win. Buoyed by this he presided over a policy that didn't encourage French players anymore. gigot left, Maria and Simon were not played much. Albert and Morgue who were promising players didn't play at all towards the end of this season and French players like Seguire ,were sat on the bench for the full duration of games. What point there ever was to Catalans has disappeared....... Expansion they are not......'" I cannot find any quote from Richard Lewis similar to your assertion.Could you assist,please? He did seem to want to expand the sport;as did Mick Potter. https://www.therhinos.co.uk/2009/02/05/ ... er-league/ news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 300343.stm No mention of the international improvement/involvement/development...responsibility for one club side...

Yet the product still exists and is able to generate income. Good for the product. But the demise in the sport without a sugar daddy is looking considerably weaker.

You mean you don't want to find anything about Catalans being brought in to develop the French International side



[i"In 2005, UTC applied to join the Super League, the highest tier of professional rugby league in Europe. They were selected ahead of Toulouse Olympique and Villeneuve Leopards to enter the league for the 2006 season. The franchise was named Catalans Dragons; UTC remained in the French Championship to serve as a reserve club. The club set a target for[u 75% of the players be qualified to play for France[/u."[/i

This is straight from Catalans own club history as published on the internet

Right.So the club set their own target.No condition(s) set by the governing body on the parachuting into Super League.Ergo,no breach of any condition, or responsibility for the failure by the French governing body to appoint a decent head coach for the international side.
They can't even be blamed for the failings of one individual in Toronto.
Time for your focus to shift to New York and/or Ottawa.
PS - Newcastle Thunder have set a target of winning Super League by 2030.Should this fail to materialise, no overseas situated club is to blame.

They (Catalan) set "a target" of 75%.
Ok you're right lets kick 'em out



You love to blame Catalan (and Toronto) plus any other overseas clubs for the sport's failings over here.
It's time to look a lot closer to home.

The greed of the top clubs plus the inability of the sport to attract new fans and hang on to it's existing ones is the reason and I think you actually know this.
The game is also dying due to a lack of international profile.
I'm sure you can also remember the "promises" to build on the "success" of the last 2 world cups.

The total lack of support for International RL from Australia almost killed the international game off.
IIRC, Richard Lewis was instrumental in getting this moving again, with the 4 Nations and a return to a regular world cup.

Our international game is based around having 3 decent national sides, plus the recent emergence of Tonga but, so much of the international game is contrived through relaxed qualifying player criteria and the regular "flip flopping" of players, who change nationality with alarming regularity.

France is at least a genuine RL playing Nation, albeit with RL played in a small South West enclave but, lets kick their clubs out of any elite competition and consign them to amateur RL - yay

We should be finding ways to grow the game both in the UK and abroad and stop being so bloody insular.

Or, we could just bemoan the fact that the sport's profile gets ever smaller and that "we" cannot command a decent TV deal, something that is unlikely to increase in the foreseeable and wont happen until RL is deemed either a proper National or International sport.

If you say so

Once again it's not about me is it? It's really rather simple. Expansion requires new paying TV deals and player development. That's not my definition it is both Eric Perez's and Superleagues.

Expansion is not placing clubs in SL an [uexpanded distance[/u from the others and at the same time kicking out an English SL club?:

But some people think it is, remember when they all got excited by the idea of Perth (WA) coming into SL. Imagine if that happened and Wakefield Trinity were relegated so they could take their SL place, and Trinity shut their academy and Wakefield fans cancelled their SKY subs???

Now would you call that "expansion" of the professional game? if you would please explain it to me

Perth would be ludicrous but, let's not go there.

I actually agree with your point about not kicking out English clubs just to accommodate a newbie.
However, there should always be a plan to grow the game, if not, by very definition, we're going backwards and this has been lacking for decades.
However, even IF Catalan were replaced by an English club in SL, this would represent yet another failure by the sport of Rugby League and our past is absolutely littered with those.
There has to be a decent strategy to grow the game, increase interest, increase participation and IF we can be successful with that, increased TV revenue would come hand in hand with that success.

I dont see ANY plan for those things, do you ? and the game is currently dyeing slowly

There's always room for expansion in our game, as it is so small and played in such a small area any expansion is good. Even Toronto (which failed business wise) still managed to showcase our game to an extra 9,000 people who otherwise would never have played or watched RL. Even if 10 of those start following RL it's better than none. However expansion should be done right and build from the bottom.

Toronto was basically a a 'bought' entity. At least Catalans have produced players, played before SL inclusion as UTC and continue to have a steady support larger than some SL clubs. Toulouse have done it right, they have produced players, earned their stripes in the Championship and on the surface of it run a good business. Newcastle and York are the next two who are doing expansion right. Building from the bottom up. Good amateur game, good development and plying their trade at a lower level first.

If any of these teams were to go, especially Catalans, it would be such a bad look for the game. I'm all for strong heartlands clubs, without them, the game dies. But in order to grow and prosper as a sport we need to introduce it to new markets, new people and keep building outside the M62 corridor.

The French game produced the players.

Catalans job was to take the best on and give them a professional arena to develop further in, and a path to annual competitive test matches with England to develop into International quality players. Certainly Catalans did play senior French players and ran an academy to further develop junior French players.

But year on year England would hammer the French International side (a dozen times with an average score of 52-7) and Gausch seemed to lose any interest he had. The academy was shut, the Internationals abandoned and now we have a situation where Catalans first choice team no longer has any French lads in the first team with Casty gone and Yaha out of favour.

I know you say that removing them from SL would be a "bad look", but the fact is Toronto were chucked out recently and it doesn't seem to me anyone beyond the RL fans who crave "expansion" actually gave a monkeys. Catalans aren't much of a draw here either when it comes to the bulk of fans so I can't see anyone crying if an English club took their place.

But it's not the fans shout. It's Superleague chairmen's shout and most of them don't like Gausch.

Thanks for the post. I counted the "expansion" clubs that have come and gone since 1896 and I think the first real expansion club was south Shields over a hundred years ago. About 50 have come and gone and to be honest nobody really bats an eyelid anymore, and nobody is surprised. Few care apart from some on message boards..

Our very existence depends on clubs with histories going back to 1864. They are too often dismissed by so called expansionists but in such a tough climate for our game clubs like Wakefield with 140 years behind them will always be the bedrock of the game.