Also, a quick question, not to flame but to get a genuine response from neutrals:

Why do Bradford and Hull KR never come up in these discussions? They are both within close proximity of other SL clubs, have poor stadia, poor youth development and questionable finances? Why are Castleford - who have poor stadia but excellent youth development and stable finances - much more likely to fall out of SL than either of those clubs?

Rumours are just that - rumours. Some times they hold little substance.

Also, the only players confirmed as gone are Sargent, Sherwin and Shenton - incoming Orr and Mathers. Sounds like sensible recruitment to me and aside from that releases up a bit of the cap for more players.

I mut be looking in the wrong direction when i travel over Barton Bridge. I see a sewage plant, a ski slope and waste ground. I see no stadium.

It's also worth noting that we're still on course for an average top 8 finish in the two seasons of the current licence period that will actually be completed by the time the applications are submitted.



Of course, how much that will count if the stadium isn't seriously on course by next April for a start-of-2012 completion is another question …

Widnes are heading for a mid-table average and it isn't going to affect their bid

It's difficult not to be partisan about these things but as far as HKR are concerned Craven Park may not be the KC but it is immesurably better than it was five years ago, how many other SL clubs can say that about their ground, despite promises year after year after year?

Youth development has vastly improved too from what was for various reasons a low starting point (our under 18s are playing in the top group and doing pretty well. Rovers' finances have been widely discussed due to the Chairman being open about the unsustainability of losses in SL, however Rovers losses are about average (for SL) and are underwritten by a committed board of directors and are therefore to use your term "stable".

Coming back from Trafford Centre on Sunday there is definately groundwork being done at the side of Barton Bridge. I would presume this to be groundworks ready for the new stadium, although they are only getting the site ready, a bit like what Waystone have been doing where the Tigers ground is supposed to be going.

Yes - i can see this too. I can't see a stadium yet though and for me, that's as good as fictional.

I've dug up my back garden to put in a jacuzzi. I've taken photographs too and i have my plans. My wife has also given me the go-ahead. I am now in negotiations with my neighbour to try and get them to help me with the financing in return for a few dips when completed.

I'm sure it'll be built .............

It is a big pile of dirt , not a RL stadium , when said pile of dirt has been removed , then they might actually start ' building ' something

Hey I like Castleford. They are my second favourite Superleague team.

But the writing looks firmly on the wall. Orr and Mathers are pretty poor signing TBH. You guys didn't have the biggest squad in the first place and Shenton and Sargent were two of your best players. Plus there is the reported drinking culture at the club with Matterson confirmed as going home after next year.

I just hope there is smoke without fire in this case.

- Our youth development's improving steadily
- Our ground is better then Cas
- We get more at home
- Take more away (on average)
- Have finished in the top 8 three seasons in a row
- Give Sky two fantastic derbies every year with Hull

Etc etc.

You may have a point

Salfords new ground is well and truely not fictional!!! must be 20+ earth movers getting the site ready for work to begin in october,when do peel holdings ever f**k around when it comes to building projects??????????????
i'd rather have them on my side then wakefield council thats for sure!!!
BYE BYE WAKEY and the worst ground ever to have graced super league!!!

We (HKR) have actually gone out and done things to improve CP and our club in general,You and Wakey have done exactly what again in all the time you have had in SL?
How long have we been in SL again in comparison the Wakey and Cas?
Comparing yourselves to Bradford is nothing short of silly talk as well.
You have nobody to blame but yourselves.

The vast majority of this thread is pointing at Wakey/Cas for the drop. I dunno why. Cas have decent crowds and a decent production line, and have achieved reasonably in the league in the franchise period. Wakey have achieved reasonably in the last two years, and are belatedly getting their youth act in gear, although their crowds are too low.

The obvious candidate, it seems to me, is Salford. When franchising came round the first time, people got fixated on the stadium as if it was the final word on whether you get a franchise, as opposed to one amongst several criteria. Salford fail pretty miserably on all the criteria : their crowds are only at the level of Quins and Crusaders because of their geographic proximity to travelling support, their results are consistently woeful, their junior set-up is historically weak and shows no great sign of improving beyond mediocre. They are also not spending remotely up to the cap nor have any near prospect of doing so. And as for the stadium, I think that the RFL (and the other clubs, who despite all the moaning at Lewis et al, are ultimately in control of this), have learned their lesson about buying pigs in pokes.

I can't see anywhere where Salford aren't bottom of the pile of the franchise criteria. Let's assume the clubs in the mix are Quins, Crusaders, Wakey, Cas and Salford, and look at the criteria :

1 Commercial, marketing, media and community.
Worse than all four for home fan numbers and media profile locally and nationally.

2 Facilities
Worst ground in the league, and new stadium is pie in the sky at present

3 Finance
None of those five have anything to shout about, and Salford's not growing its pie until the Flying Pig Stadium is completed

4 Governance and business management
Wakey and Cas seem well-governed by comparison. Crusaders have been worse, but this year seem to be much steadier. Quins is closest in ineptitude.

5 Playing strength and player performance strategy - Terrible at senior level, mediocre at best at junior level
First team's performance is the worst of the bunch over the last decade. Youth teams are mediocre at best, and playing numbers in Salford are tiny compared to the kids playing in the catchments of the other four candidates.

By my reckoning, that makes Salford a clear worst in 3 of the 5 criteria, and joint worst in the other 2. I'd say they're gone.

Excellent post.

Can we get a swingometer on here? I was convinced it was Wakey/Cas. After reading Wardley's daft post and then Mr Haggerty's the meter is now pointing at Salford. By 'eck there's gonna be some argy bargy on here next year

Should we open a book?

I hope Crusaders are in the Championship again after three years, a farewell to the Paris/Gateshead/Wrexham approach forever and a better way to improve the standard of players in Wales and a crowd base.

Their average crowd is the third lowest in the division and following the Paris model that may get worse, from a sell out game one to what could be the lowest super league crowd of the year tomorrow, they also had no welsh players in their last team from what ive read, until the players are ready there should be no team, results with a team of australians are far from impressive
They have broken the rules with the visa issues and went bust in the close season, this would prevent a team coming up so should count against them, there are also questions about finances/management this year - their geographical position is a "strength" but if it was important then they wouldnt have been able to change it so easily

how are the players supposed to be ready for SL without ever playing SL?

also, plenty of heartland clubs have a far from proud history when it comes to overseas players,

Sargent has been one of our poorest players this season unfortunately.

We didn't have a big squad but losing a few of our highest earners and replacing them with decent players is just as good.

Mathers fills a void we've long suffered from - full-back. That means McGoldrick can move to centre to replace Shenton.

We're looking at recruiting another top prop or two to replace Sargent. We should have a decent squad next season with a few more recruits.

Typical HKR....always asking for stuff ........like extra overseas players because they have no yoof/development.......after 100+ years of existance

Dispensation on a mere ONE player ffs!





Production line starting to deliver - Welham, Watts, Mariano, Latus, Spaven etc, all going great up here thanks bud.





Seriously though it really should be time to end the stupid 30 year London experiment.

It's just simply not worked - the crowds are terrible, you take 5 fans to away games on average, there's just no interest there!

Like I said before, not selling out a Challenge Cup Final allocation in your own city and been outnumbered 3-1 by a Yorkshire team told me everything I needed to know, and the only thing that's changed since that day is your crowds have sank even lower!







I'm sure you could be a very competitive Championship club though, + there'd be the derby with Skollars.

Well it has taken 30 years in the mega city of London

simple solution ...

2 tiers, The European super league, wigan, warrington, st helens, leeds,
hull, hudds, catalans, toulouse, quins, crusaders, hull kr , bradford

and the "Heartlands" League, for those who don't like to stray too far from the M62
cas, wakey , salford, halifax, widnes, leigh, barrow, featherstone, sheffield, batley dewsbury, keighley , whitehaven, hunslet, oldham etc even make it into 2 conferences to reduce travel (west pennines, east pennines perhaps )

and as for london skolars, gateshead and south wales, tough.. not super and not "heartlands" ...

now, where did I put Richard Lewis's number ...