Over the past few weeks we have heard rumblings of contacts in north america wishing to get involved in RL.

On the face of it, it sounds great, however, we have a history of expansion without really understanding how to expand in my opnion.

So I thought I would go through some of the pros and cons of what I have heard (which is not a lot).

Firstly, Toronto are going well in 2017, whether they can make it to the promotion to SL in 2018 we shall see, but they have setup pretty steadily, I do not know the costs involved or their bottom line, how much is costing the owner and is it sustainable? Getting 7K to me would say it probably is just about sustainable, if it continues.

Secondly, there is talk of a match in Denver, essentially Denver is smack in the middle of the USA, not exactly the location I would pick, and the reason for that is due to the end game, we need to go places where we can setup a pro league and thus get folks involved, this location needs to be in close proximaty to other large towns and cities and have large university close by. It also needs regular flights to the airport is the plan is to get into SL. Denvers population is 682,545, the state of Colorado, 5 million, but they are mainly well spread out, with quite comes distance between towns, it doesn't really stack up to create a pro-league here to me.

Denver doesn't really tick all the boxes, certainly not like New York City, but those plans need to be in place along with costings.

I hear that LA, NY are also in the mix for a possible SL club, LA is just way too far for the SL, NY and Toronto are right on the edge of distance. Again we need to see long term plans and costings and how the leagues are going to step up from the amatuer setups they have now into teams that can turn the massive amounts of young americans athletes into top class RL players.

If we are talking about just world cup venues, then we obviously want big cities, but the problem is the organisation and cost if they are 7 hours between flights, we need to good attendances and also a plan to deliver a pro league in at least 1 area of LA or NY in order to make it worth while.

There is talk of all this being funded from outside the RFL /NRL but I caution this, we should not consider "money" to be the reason we go to a place, we need to always make sure the end goal is to end up with a 3rd pro league in the world somewhere, I beleive the USA is it, but I know my RL History and our ability to forget about everything to take some cash and run a tournament or team until the money runs out. We need to make the teams/ leagues self sufficient wherever we go whatever we do.

Denver has to be the most stupid suggestion for a RL international that I have ever heard. There is no rugby league team there. The NZ vs England game has to be held in the established rugby league bastion of Toronto, or else at one of the potential franchises of New York, Boston, or Philadelphia.

Only the above mentioned cities will attract a crowd and can benefit in future development terms from a properly promoted international rugby league event.

Melbourne Storm, Brisbane Broncos, North Queensland Cowboys and Catalan Dragons are expansion clubs who have all been successful. What did they all have in common? They had the security that they would not be relegated from the league they were in, if Catalan were relegated in 2006 it’s unlikely they would still be a professional side competing in Super League today.

I thought they all had RL established in their backyards - Melbourne 1914 I believe - so had a player and fan base to grow from, silly me.

I don't quite understand why people think that we can move to an already saturated sports market. With very little grassroots/promotion/foothold and the crowds and sponsorship and markets are just going to open up for us.
We'd be competing with nfl, College football, Baseball,Ice Hockey,basketball,soccer (male &female). And the college versions of these sports. That are already massive, have all the prime time TV spots (which let's face it is how the public view sports, more than going). And have a big advertisement market (mainly because there on the prime time tv). Rugby union is also about 5 years ahead of us over there.

I think Toronto have shown, that Canada may be better for us in the long run to become an established sport.

I could be wrong, but when you think it took football 30 + years (and it was the most participated sport in America during those years), to get anything over there. I think it's naive that a totally alien sport like us will just crack it. If we're willing to put in the time and effort required. And give it the time than yes I think we could do well, and at least establish our selves there. But I don't think it will be as soon as people hope.

My line of thought is same as poster above , sticking a pin in a map looking for big cities across the world doesn't work , our little voice doesn't get heard, but it absolutely can in smaller towns, to think big you have got to go small.

There's a couple of ways to look at this.

You don't want to necessarily be charging into a "crowded market" because, as you said, you're competing with established sports for what is theoretically a finite level of supporter spend and media time.

Somewhere like Hamilton Ontario has been mentioned before, and that seems like a good shout - a decent-sized city region with a decent media market and only one top-flight team (Hamilton Tigercats in the CFL).

However, I'd argue that somewhere like New York isn't necessarily a "crowded market". Yes, it would look that way in the traditional sense of the term, but when you scratch beneath the surface you can make a business case that RL, offering some unique USPs, can actually find its niche in that market.

Look at the NY sports market as an example, and you'll see that it's actually quite difficult for your average Joe to "consume" that sport. It costs [iat least[/i $100 to see the Giants or Jets (that's if you can actually get a ticket in the Gods), and that's before you've paid $50 to park the car and $12 for a pint of Bud Light. It's very difficult to get tickets for the Knicks, and it's expensive to watch the Yankees and the Brooklyn Nets.

In the cities, college sports doesn't attract that much of the market (perhaps with the exception of LA). Where college sports are big are the middle and southern states - with the exception of perhaps Florida I suspect those aren't the regions being alluded to by Nigel Wood.

So what you have is a big city population that, whilst it has a lot of sport to choose from, is actually unable to consume that sport - either because tickets are so scarce, or because they're prohibitively expensive. That's a USP that RL can really aim for.

It's also worth noting that as a summer sport, we're not competing with the NFL, NBA or NHL. We are competing with the MLB and MLS, but that's potentially where (in the case of New York in particular) the media market suits us.

There are two local sports broadcasters in the US. MSG covers basketball, the two NFL teams and ice hockey, but jack-all in the summer. YES covers the Mets, Yankees and NY Soccer, but little in the winter. For a broadcaster like MSG, we'd be prime content - similar in nature to ice hockey and NFL, but without the schedule clashes.

I agree that charging into cities with no real plan isn't a good strategy. If we are going into a city, we really need to understand the market we're reaching and what we offer that market. I'd argue that whilst NY is a busy market, it isn't necessarily a saturated one. There are 8 million people in New York - they can't all watch the Giants, Jets, Knicks and Yankees. Marketed properly, with the right USP, there's no reason why RL can't attract an audience.

The north east seaboard is the strongest area for Rl over there so it has to be there, the tristate area and new England is also one of the most densely populated areas with reasonable short (By continental America standards) travel distances. any proposed leagues in USA and Canada have to be around this area or any proposed international fixtures.
i also think if the world cup is there in 2025 all games should be in major cities in major states, tri state area, Florida, southern Californian Chicago met area and possible Texas, however Texas is very spread out, so it would have to restrict to Dallas forth worth Arlington met area and Houston met area. not entirely sure is Rl is made for Texas at the present.

target the nfl crowd.... bits of rugby league in that sport just without all the padding!!

sure they would love it just need the exposure too it

Why because its frozen for half the year so they can play their homes games in Manchester and Newcastle?

Bramleyrhino.

Your forgetting the Mets, New York City fc, New York Rangers, New York islanders, new Jersey Devils, New York Red Bulls, new York Cosmos. And other teams.
And the thing with big cities is, there's also a lot of non sporting things to do.
If we could establish ourselves in New York, then yes I think we'd have a better chance of cracking America.
But I tend to agree with mrpurfect in that we would have a better chance in places like Hamilton, Jacksonville (Leeds v south Sydney got 10,000 for a pre season friendly there). Smaller towns. Where we could get better coverage on local TV, radio where's there's more of a market for us to compete for. And where there is less to compete against. Get a foothold in these places, then we can look at cities.

The other thing with cities is substanabilty. Yeah we get crowds at first for the novelty. But are they going to stick?

Like I said, I would concentrate on Canada, expand there as i do believe we will become more established there than USA.

Unbelievable.

Stick the boot into the established British clubs outside Super League then pin the sport’s future on some bloke in a bar in New York saying it would be good if New York had a Rugby League team.

I’m drowning in irony

I'm not forgetting anything. What I'm saying is that within what appears to be "saturated" markets, there lies opportunities to find a niche and be successful. Good marketers do that every single day.

And your question about "will they come back" applies to any market and again, is a question tackled by good marketers every day. If we want to put the sport in one-horse towns, we may as well just stick with Widnes and Leigh.

Oh boo fecking hoo....

These established British clubs have had more than 120 years to prove that they can take themselves and the sport forward and with a handful of exceptions, they have failed.

We can't afford to wait another 120 while they work out how marketing works.

A) Good Marketers may do that everyday. But we talking about the RFL and international boards. Who can't tell us for certain what is happening next year, and how it will effect this year's competition. Or get 3/4 full stadiums in a WC held in a apparently mad RL country.

B) what I said was to get a foothold in America start with small cities & towns. Then look at big cities. Again were an alien sport, trying to break in an over saturated market. In that case any success should be taken.

C) what's wrong with Leigh,Widnes etc. While all other places we've tried have mostly fallen apart. They have still survived. They've done there dues, and deserve as much as anyone to be apart of this adventure. It should never be either or, it should be both.

I've said plenty of times before but the biggest marketing failure is at club level. The RFL has failings, but the biggest point of failure is with the clubs. Just because our clubs can't market themselves doesn't mean that American clubs can't.

Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with Widnes or Leigh, but let's not pretend that they're going to open up the new audiences that sponsors and broadcasters are demanding. They might be the history of the sport, but history is what you cling to when you have no future.

Learning to read and infer stops the irony building

Not really, both Leigh and Widnes have been down to relying on bucket collections in the past 10 years and only exist now because they have a wealthy backer financing the club, the same as everywhere else. The only reason they haven't fallen apart compared to other places is because the owners are more committed than say the various owners of Bradford or Celtic Crusaders.

As for the heartland clubs, if they can't compete with places that have no RL presence and the sport is completely alien then they can't claim to be much of a heartland, can then?

Totally be honest. Most heartland clubs support has been eradicated by contest changes to the structure of the sport. And lack of ambition by there clubs.plus as Bramleyrhino said, lazy marketing etc by clubs. Combine the 2 and there's always going to be problems. Plus just how much football's taken over can't be underestimated.
My problem with the new clubs. Is yes they'll get support initially, but can they keep them. History shows that this is the problem.

Like I put, this really needs to be both together (heartlands & Expansion). To make it work. Reckless abandonment of what's kept us going for risk hopes could destroy what's already been built. Staying as we are could see us stagnate.

It's intresting though most of the people massively advocating total expansion, don't support clubs that will be effected by this. You can't help thinking if it involved there clubs losing a SL place for an expansion team. Would they be so keen.

Exactly.....
To play a group of 11 or 12 games "on the road" when in reality most of your squad are near their homes and then again at the season ending 8's or play offs again have a block of games is unfair to the teams who will have to travel weekly to accommodate their inclement weather.....if they want to play then let them play indoors....1 week home, 1 week away like everyone else.......they have 12 straight home games scheduled for 2018......and each of their opponents will have landed the day before KO.......level playing-field?

Great, fantastic, a thriving RL on the other side of the Atlantic. If they do well, then there will be a couple more teams competing at an international level...

...but why the heck are we interested in them playing at a club level in SL or our other leagues?

If they're truly successful (on the scale of other sports in that neck of the woods), then they'll eventually be dismissing Leeds, Wigan, Saints et al as "small UK towns" that aren't worthy of playing in "our" league.

Folk should be careful what they wish for.

To put this one to bed, my view on that is ultimately that it's incumbent on the club to put themselves in a position where they aren't at risk of falling out of SL. If I thought my club was being badly run and failing to progress, I'd call it out.

And whilst I am a Leeds fan, I've also been a shareholder at Bramley. If you want me to regale you of stories where clubs who were strong advocates of automatic P&R when it suited them would regularly vote against it for clubs looking to enter the National League structure (including the one you support), do pull up a chair.

i that should happen, then what a triumph for global rugby league that would be. just for balance. the most successful side in american football history, is the small town Green bay packers, the stadium holds more than the towns population.

I wasn't being critical of anyone in particular. I was just making the point that it's easier to be for something when it won't affect your club. Half the arguments on here about expansion are because of the above point. With people not willing to see the others point of view.
And I know pretty much every club in RL is self serving. Look at the TV money when Bradford went into administration. Rather than doing the right thing (ie putting it into grassroots,etc). The first thing the clubs did was get there share. In my opinion it's why we're standing still. It's not what's best for RL. But what's best for my club.

Back on topic, there is one thing I don't understand. We're thinking/looking at putting all this effort into USA. When there are 2 countries right next to us in Scotland & Ireland, that we're ignoring.

Tbf the Packers are probably the best supported small City sports team in the World. Getting their support from the whole of Wisconsin, their Metro area & from bigger Cities nearby like Milwaukee & Madison, because they're the only NFL team in the State, much like The Milwaukee Brewers do in the MLB.

Although not that far off, Lambeau holds just over 80k, 20 odd thousand less than the Population of the City of Green Bay.